The K Series problem which dare not speak its name: Options?

[HereBeMonsters]

So I spent £300 on a full service for my S1, then a week later I was picking it up from Sportomotive, and they mention "oh, there's a bit of mayonnaise in the coolant bottle"

My heart sunk. I've been religious in checking that, and the oil filler cap once a week for the last 2.5 years I've had the car. Weird, or more likely that it happened just after a service? Seemed to drive home OK, but I don't want to drive it again except to a garage to be properly checked out.

I knew this day would eventually come, despite the receipt in the service history for a skim and new gasket in 2006 from Backontrack. I always thought I'd go for a VVC engine swap at this point, but the chaps at Sportomotive rubbished the VVC and recommended I spend around £1200 with them and get a ported and polished head with bigger valves, giving around 140-145 bhp.

Having researched around, I'm a bit skeptical of this given that it will still be running the standard ECU. I do already have the "sports exhaust" and a decent induction kit, but even so...

So, is there anything else I should consider instead? Maximum budget is under £2k. I'd like a solution that lasts, and preferably adds value to the car if possible.

[Stephanie Plum]

Have a look at your options here - www.dvapower.co.uk

[pthelazyjourno]

Standard ECU is good for 150bhp.

If not DVA, drop Roger a line at Sabre Heads - really can't speak highly enough of him.

Not the end of the world, and an opportunity to get a few more horses for your car!

[MGJohn]

Can you post a picture of the mayo in the coolant bottle?

HBM, if you are not afraid to pick up a spanner or two, before thinking it obviously must be that, first do some investigations yourself.

It is far from unknown that problems can occur with any k-Series engined car soon after a service. Rear-mid engined cars seem particularly prone.

With a range of K-Series cars in my immediate family, including one in my son's S2, best to do a few basic DIY checks to first see if there is a problem and what the cause is.

If the Coolant Expansion Bottle now shows a loss of coolant in the bottle ~ there are MAX-MIN indexes ~ that could be caused by almost any number of reasons. So before jumping the gun, I'd top up the coolant to the Index if necessary and use the car being all eyes and ears whilst driving it. Monitor the coolant for signs of more 'mayo' or loss in the bottle. Under the oil filler cap need not be anything more than simple emulsification which can occur by the type of use the car gets, or lack of.

If after these basic DIY checks, it appears coolant is being lost, it may be due to a worn Water Pump. In my limited experience, a prime cause of engine overheating leading to engine damage and the first thing to be damaged is usually the cylinder head gasket.

I wonder why cylinder heads [u]always[/u] or invariably seem to get skimmed. This is only ever really necessary when there is damage to the head block-interface, usually where the overheating has weakened the fire ring areas resulting in indentations. Even then, except in severe cases when a replacement cylinder head is required, I do not think it is really necessary particularly if the MLS ( Multi Layer Steel ) and its head 'saver' shim is used in the repair.

However, in any event, you appear to seek more power. So even with your 2k budget, I'd source a good VVC engine ~ complete MoT failure or accident damaged 160bhp VVC donor cars can be bought for relatively little. The swap could be straightforward and well under the 2k budget, far less if doing the transplant yourself as my son has done on more than one occasion with VVC engines.

With three VVC engines in the family and another in a friend's car, I think the advice given to you not to use one of those higher spec K-Series engines is erroneous.

Edited by MGJohn on Sunday 23 June 00:50

[bencollins]

This is a great article on the K-series.
http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/engines/engin...
lapping of the valve seats adds 15hp and lots of low end torque.
easy peasy mod. seems best to use a VVC head as a start point though.

[Republik1980]

bencollins said:

This is a great article on the K-series.
http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/engines/engin...
lapping of the valve seats adds 15hp and lots of low end torque.
easy peasy mod. seems best to use a VVC head as a start point though.

That is indeed a great article on the K-series - really interesting reading

Unfortunately I can't contribute a whole lot to the OP's original topic based on experience; although it does seem a little like the company that wishes to do the tuning work might have an agenda. A few pros and cons off the top of my head on tuning the existing engine versus dropping in a VVC unit:


Benefits of tuning the existing engine:

- It should be thoroughly inspected during the process so should give better peace of mind / reliability
- It will retain originality of the car so may be looked on more favourably if / when you come to sell
- The non-VVC engine is obviously less complex and more plentiful than the VVC item, so spares and servicing should be a bit cheaper


Benefits of chucking in a VVC lump:

- If just throwing in a known-good engine it should be much cheaper than rebuilding and tuning the original unit
- The VVC unit produces 160bhp as opposed to the projected 145bhp of the tuned standard unit
- For any given power output the VVC unit should produce a larger, flatter a more useable torque curve than a standard engine; making it more flexible and tractable at low engine speeds.
- Similarly for any given output the VVC unit should be better on fuel compared to a tuned "conventional" engine.


Correct me if I'm wrong but the VVC seems to have a similar reliability record to the std unit, so potentially seems like a good alternative. I've been sniffing around S2s at the moment and the VVC engine'd variant (111s) certainly seems the most appealing..


Good luck getting it sorted

[MGJohn]

Republik1980 said:

.
- For any given power output the VVC unit should produce a larger, flatter a more useable torque curve than a standard engine; making it more flexible and tractable at low engine speeds.

- Similarly for any given output the VVC unit should be better on fuel compared to a tuned "conventional" engine.

Good luck getting it sorted

This above all is what I really like about the VVC K-Series. My son has fitted a VVC unit to a Rover 100. A car I bought new in 1993 which left the production line as a Metro 1.1c ( C=carb ?). Still has that 1.1c badge on the hatch... It has more power than the one in his S2 Elise !

Had someone come over at the petrol station whilst filling up to be told :~

No way is that a 1.1!

He was not wrong..

Believe what you like, according to my son who used to use this Metro for his work, with the 1.8 VVC engine, the car is more economical on fuel than when he used it in 1.1 form. He travels much in his job, so we suspect that to keep up with modern traffic flows, the little 1.1 needs to work that much harder and outside it's more fuel efficient parameters. You just need to take up the slack in the Throttle cable with the VVC version whilst the equivalent speed in the 1.1 car required lots more foot to the floor stuff to keep up.

[HereBeMonsters]

Thanks for all the replies. Good to see the VVC put into some perspective. I guess it's not as terrible to drive (at low speed at least) as some would say?

Is there any way to test the HG bar looking for water in the oil/vice versa? Compression test or anything? The more I think about it, the more I'm sure I checked it before I took it in for the front suspension refresh, and it came back with mayo in the coolant bottle and a "we can fix it and give you more power for £1200" quote.

[MGJohn]

HereBeMonsters said:

Thanks for all the replies. Good to see the VVC put into some perspective. I guess it's not as terrible to drive (at low speed at least) as some would say?

Is there any way to test the HG bar looking for water in the oil/vice versa? Compression test or anything? The more I think about it, the more I'm sure I checked it before I took it in for the front suspension refresh, and it came back with mayo in the coolant bottle and a "we can fix it and give you more power for £1200" quote.
.

Good for you. There's a sticky thread over on the MG-Rover.org web site which if you've not already seen it, is a helpful pointer what to look for.

After all, you don't want to be yet another K-Series owner who had his gasket replaced which did not need doing. There again, if all the checks indicate it does need doing, it really isn't the end of the world as we know it.

Good luck.

Right ~ race 2 in the BTCC about to start on Freeview Ch. 24 ITV4

Eyes down...

[worldwidewebs]

HereBeMonsters said:

Thanks for all the replies. Good to see the VVC put into some perspective. I guess it's not as terrible to drive (at low speed at least) as some would say?.

Who says it's terrible to drive? Certainly not anyone who has ever driven one, that's for sure.

[HereBeMonsters]

worldwidewebs said:

HereBeMonsters said:

Thanks for all the replies. Good to see the VVC put into some perspective. I guess it's not as terrible to drive (at low speed at least) as some would say?.

Who says it's terrible to drive? Certainly not anyone who has ever driven one, that's for sure.

I have driven one (Elise S1 Sport 160) a long time ago, and I remember being only slightly less jerky at low speed than my 205!

There is a company in Norfolk (not a million miles away from my parents) who advertise a 160bhp VVC engine swap on eBay for £1295. It's off a crashed something (presume an MG?) so has an ECU swap etc.

I'll start this afternoon with cleaning out the expansion tank, topping it back up with coolant, and run it for a couple of days to see what happens. Could it possibly be just some side-effect of the service (all cooland and oil drained, then refilled etc.)? I don't want to cast aspersions on a reputable business after all - and they did sort my front end perfectly. It's pointier than a needle covered in thistles since.

[pthelazyjourno]

HereBeMonsters said:

I have driven one (Elise S1 Sport 160) a long time ago, and I remember being only slightly less jerky at low speed than my 205!

There is a company in Norfolk (not a million miles away from my parents) who advertise a 160bhp VVC engine swap on eBay for £1295. It's off a crashed something (presume an MG?) so has an ECU swap etc.

I'll start this afternoon with cleaning out the expansion tank, topping it back up with coolant, and run it for a couple of days to see what happens. Could it possibly be just some side-effect of the service (all cooland and oil drained, then refilled etc.)? I don't want to cast aspersions on a reputable business after all - and they did sort my front end perfectly. It's pointier than a needle covered in thistles since.

Sport 160 isn't VVC.

It's a regular K with a modified head / ECU. Polished, ported, cams etc.

[Tothepoint]

I simply wanted to put in a good word for Sportomotive. My non VVC S1 has been looked after by them for the nine years I’ve had her and I have always been extremely happy with their advice. No nonsense, plain and frequently aimed at stopping me from spending money!

I ‘suffered’ HGF two months after buying Lottie, which Sportomotive fixed and I had no problems for six years and then noticed the exhaust appeared a little different – I immediately imagined the worst – HGF again. Actually it was the inlet manifold! Generally, if HGF has been fixed with the updated Landrover (designed for Freelander I think) gasket it is unlikely to go for a long time. Anyway, my point is that it might not be HGF!

Best of luck sorting it out.

[MGJohn]

Tothepoint said:

I simply wanted to put in a good word for Sportomotive. My non VVC S1 has been looked after by them for the nine years I’ve had her and I have always been extremely happy with their advice. No nonsense, plain and frequently aimed at stopping me from spending money!

I ‘suffered’ HGF two months after buying Lottie, which Sportomotive fixed and I had no problems for six years and then noticed the exhaust appeared a little different – I immediately imagined the worst – HGF again. Actually it was the inlet manifold! Generally, if HGF has been fixed with the updated Landrover (designed for Freelander I think) gasket it is unlikely to go for a long time. Anyway, my point is that it might not be HGF!

Best of luck sorting it out.

Bad luck. I'd bet a few quid that signs of a pending HGF were showing well before the two months you had it.

Although when they 'suddenly' let go, that creates a false impression and the more experienced may see the less noticeable early signs weeks or even months beforehand.

The so called Land Rover upgrade is of a very similar multi-layered "Klinger" design used by Rover some years before on their later T-Series Turbocharged cars. That MLS along with the improved Oil Rail is supposed to be a superior and more reliable design. In my limited experience, it is the checking and careful preparation of the block-head interface and reassembly which is at least as important as the gasket used. The best replacement gasket in the world will not last long if the all important repair care and attention is not of a satisfactory standard.

The very first CHG I replaced on a K-Series was following a repair by pro-trained technicians who somehow had completed the job and omitted to fit the all important head-block interface dowel nearest the timing side of the engine. That dowel not only locates the head-block, it also acts as a conduit for the high pressure oil supply to the double overhead camshafts. Without that dowel to contain the the high pressure oil supply, Oil was pumped straight into and around the cylinder head gasket! Horrible mess of oil-coolant mix as can be imagined throughout the engine and its cooling system. The lady owner was so disheartened by the costly experience she parked up the car on her drive and did not touch it for a month or more. At a quiz night she mentioned her experience of the car and I said I'd have a look but, made no promises. I identified the problems and fixed it. That was some years ago and I see her little car still going strong locally.

It aint rocket science but does require a certain level of care, attention and competence.

I also learned much from the experience which has been beneficial in many ways.