S2 Elise prices - which way are they heading?
Discussion
I'm nervously mulling over the idea of an S2 as a daily. I'd be shopping at the bottom of the market; with a max (stretched) budget of probably £12k.
This would be a huge investment for me, partially man-maths justified by the almost depreciation-proof nature of the Elise.
Despite this I'd obviously like to buy at the most advantageous time. I get the feeling that generally people's disposable income is dwindling and hence that the price of "toys" such as the Elise might fall with lower demand.
Conversely a mate reckons the opposite; that those with savings etc are looking to invest in commodities that they can enjoy rather than having them languishing with the scumbag banks at 2% p/a.
S1 prices seem to have bottomed out at about £7k a long time ago (and I doubt they'll go any lower), while decent, early standard S2s seem to start at around £10-10.5k.
Would anyone care to speculate as to how much more they think the S2 prices will fall? Are they on a general upward, downward or stagnant trend at the moment? Do we think the S2 will be as desirable as the S1 over the coming years? (personally I prefer it, but I know a lot regard the S1 as the purest of the breed).
It seems to me that S2 prices have maybe been falling a little in the past few months I've been looking; but then I've not been looking long and this might just be wishful thinking
Finally, is there likely to be any saving if staving off the purchase until the depths of winter, or is the "seasonal variation in price" argument largely a myth?
Cheers for any thoughts
This would be a huge investment for me, partially man-maths justified by the almost depreciation-proof nature of the Elise.
Despite this I'd obviously like to buy at the most advantageous time. I get the feeling that generally people's disposable income is dwindling and hence that the price of "toys" such as the Elise might fall with lower demand.
Conversely a mate reckons the opposite; that those with savings etc are looking to invest in commodities that they can enjoy rather than having them languishing with the scumbag banks at 2% p/a.
S1 prices seem to have bottomed out at about £7k a long time ago (and I doubt they'll go any lower), while decent, early standard S2s seem to start at around £10-10.5k.
Would anyone care to speculate as to how much more they think the S2 prices will fall? Are they on a general upward, downward or stagnant trend at the moment? Do we think the S2 will be as desirable as the S1 over the coming years? (personally I prefer it, but I know a lot regard the S1 as the purest of the breed).
It seems to me that S2 prices have maybe been falling a little in the past few months I've been looking; but then I've not been looking long and this might just be wishful thinking
Finally, is there likely to be any saving if staving off the purchase until the depths of winter, or is the "seasonal variation in price" argument largely a myth?
Cheers for any thoughts
Some people with more experience will be along in a moment I'm sure, but I'd say you need to either have a war chest set aside for issues or be prepared to turn a blind eye for a while after buying.
I'm a new owner of an S1 Elise which I bought at the bottom of the price range for a low mileage car with good provenance. It's since cost me ~£1k in expected servicing and maintenance costs and is about to cost me a further unexpected ~£350 due to being unable to turn a blind eye to a rusted through towing bracket.
That's not to mention the hood which ideally needs replacing and rusty suspension wishbones which annoy me etc etc. This car will be a rolling restoration costing me £1000 per year in improvement/rectification for a few years I think. I was sort of expecting this but it handn't really sunk in properly before I got excited and bought it!
For S1's there's an adage that they all cost £10,000 - either you pay that up front for a good one or you pay that in installments buying it and making it good. I'm not sure what the equivalent figure is for an S2 as they're better built but more expensive in the first place?
ETA: My car - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I'm a new owner of an S1 Elise which I bought at the bottom of the price range for a low mileage car with good provenance. It's since cost me ~£1k in expected servicing and maintenance costs and is about to cost me a further unexpected ~£350 due to being unable to turn a blind eye to a rusted through towing bracket.
That's not to mention the hood which ideally needs replacing and rusty suspension wishbones which annoy me etc etc. This car will be a rolling restoration costing me £1000 per year in improvement/rectification for a few years I think. I was sort of expecting this but it handn't really sunk in properly before I got excited and bought it!
For S1's there's an adage that they all cost £10,000 - either you pay that up front for a good one or you pay that in installments buying it and making it good. I'm not sure what the equivalent figure is for an S2 as they're better built but more expensive in the first place?
ETA: My car - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by moribund on Wednesday 5th June 13:36
If you want a bargain I sugest you wait until January. I bought a 1 owner, 11,500 mile 04 111r from christopher neils January this year for £16,000.
At current main dealer prices it has appreciated by about £2,000 in 6 months. However I think this is purely a seasonal increase and it will depreciate back down to £16,000 Jan 2014 when it will have done about 17,000 miles.
Long term I think they are a great place to put your money - they may or may not appreciate but they will almost certainly not depriciate by any great sum.
If your looking at the lower end of the market I would strongly suggest an immaculate low mile vx220 n/a. They are noticably more brisk than a base s2 and practically identical to drive (I owned one before the elise). They also get as much if not more attention than an elise if your into that kind of thing.
At current main dealer prices it has appreciated by about £2,000 in 6 months. However I think this is purely a seasonal increase and it will depreciate back down to £16,000 Jan 2014 when it will have done about 17,000 miles.
Long term I think they are a great place to put your money - they may or may not appreciate but they will almost certainly not depriciate by any great sum.
If your looking at the lower end of the market I would strongly suggest an immaculate low mile vx220 n/a. They are noticably more brisk than a base s2 and practically identical to drive (I owned one before the elise). They also get as much if not more attention than an elise if your into that kind of thing.
moribund said:
Some people with more experience will be along in a moment I'm sure, but I'd say you need to either have a war chest set aside for issues or be prepared to turn a blind eye for a while after buying.
I'm a new owner of an S1 Elise which I bought at the bottom of the price range for a low mileage car with good provenance. It's since cost me ~£1k in expected servicing and maintenance costs and is about to cost me a further unexpected ~£350 due to being unable to turn a blind eye to a rusted through towing bracket.
That's not to mention the hood which ideally needs replacing and rusty suspension wishbones which annoy me etc etc. This car will be a rolling restoration costing me £1000 per year in improvement/rectification for a few years I think. I was sort of expecting this but it handn't really sunk in properly before I got excited and bought it!
For S1's there's an adage that they all cost £10,000 - either you pay that up front for a good one or you pay that in installments buying it and making it good. I'm not sure what the equivalent figure is for an S2 as they're better built but more expensive in the first place?
ETA: My car - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Yep I agree with most of the above re servicing/maintenance. Non of the bills you can expect will be massive but if you buy a tired car pay the correct price (common sense!) For a s2 that needs work you should be looking to pay around 9k. A mint early example should be 11 -12kI'm a new owner of an S1 Elise which I bought at the bottom of the price range for a low mileage car with good provenance. It's since cost me ~£1k in expected servicing and maintenance costs and is about to cost me a further unexpected ~£350 due to being unable to turn a blind eye to a rusted through towing bracket.
That's not to mention the hood which ideally needs replacing and rusty suspension wishbones which annoy me etc etc. This car will be a rolling restoration costing me £1000 per year in improvement/rectification for a few years I think. I was sort of expecting this but it handn't really sunk in properly before I got excited and bought it!
For S1's there's an adage that they all cost £10,000 - either you pay that up front for a good one or you pay that in installments buying it and making it good. I'm not sure what the equivalent figure is for an S2 as they're better built but more expensive in the first place?
ETA: My car - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by moribund on Wednesday 5th June 13:36
I bought an '05 111S and based on current prices I reckon I've not lost anything on it. I've paid for expected servicing and anything else that it might need but I can't really see it going down significantly (or at all) in the near future.
Like someone above said, I had some money in savings and figured that I'd rather drive around in the car I'd always wanted instead of it sitting in the bank earning sweet FA.
I've had a year driving an amazing car and it's cost me nothing.
Like someone above said, I had some money in savings and figured that I'd rather drive around in the car I'd always wanted instead of it sitting in the bank earning sweet FA.
I've had a year driving an amazing car and it's cost me nothing.
Thanks for the thoughts
Nice S1 Moribund, and thanks for the pointers on servicing costs. I don't have an issue with running costs as long as they're relatively small and predictable. The car won't do a lot of mileage and I might have the opportunity to do basic repairs myself, so I'm hoping this will keep costs low.
This is one of the many things that drew me to the Elise - it appears so much cheaper to run compared to more exotic metal of similar performance; and far less likely to bite you in the arse with eye-watering unexpected costs should something go pop.
Hughcam: thanks - that is a big upturn in prices! I suppose the "January" argument goes for a lot of purchases really, after the potential expense of Christmas. I'm quite (well, reasonably) happy to sit on my hands for another 6 months; continue the research and get a bit more saved to make myself feel better / not end up spending the entirety of my savings on the car. Of course the one thing I'd want to avoid would be waiting and eventually paying more if prices are on a general upward trend.
I've considered the VX but tbh it doesn't appeal like the Lotus does, plus I have my reservations about the future cost / availability of bespoke bits (lights, panels) and it's worse on CO2 / Tax / Fuel to boot. Ta for the suggestion though.
Magical Trevor: Thanks - the 111s would ideally be what I'd buy; prices permitting. Yours looks like a particularly nice example too and I love the colour! I agree with your point completely - got about £12k as a supposed deposit on a house but through half-arsed looking we're not finding anything appealing that we can afford. Might as well enjoy the money rather than having it sat doing nothing and shrinking by 5% per year. I think I'd find it hard to sell the car though - hopefully by the time a suitable house was found, I'd have saved enough to justify keeping the motor
Nice S1 Moribund, and thanks for the pointers on servicing costs. I don't have an issue with running costs as long as they're relatively small and predictable. The car won't do a lot of mileage and I might have the opportunity to do basic repairs myself, so I'm hoping this will keep costs low.
This is one of the many things that drew me to the Elise - it appears so much cheaper to run compared to more exotic metal of similar performance; and far less likely to bite you in the arse with eye-watering unexpected costs should something go pop.
Hughcam: thanks - that is a big upturn in prices! I suppose the "January" argument goes for a lot of purchases really, after the potential expense of Christmas. I'm quite (well, reasonably) happy to sit on my hands for another 6 months; continue the research and get a bit more saved to make myself feel better / not end up spending the entirety of my savings on the car. Of course the one thing I'd want to avoid would be waiting and eventually paying more if prices are on a general upward trend.
I've considered the VX but tbh it doesn't appeal like the Lotus does, plus I have my reservations about the future cost / availability of bespoke bits (lights, panels) and it's worse on CO2 / Tax / Fuel to boot. Ta for the suggestion though.
Magical Trevor: Thanks - the 111s would ideally be what I'd buy; prices permitting. Yours looks like a particularly nice example too and I love the colour! I agree with your point completely - got about £12k as a supposed deposit on a house but through half-arsed looking we're not finding anything appealing that we can afford. Might as well enjoy the money rather than having it sat doing nothing and shrinking by 5% per year. I think I'd find it hard to sell the car though - hopefully by the time a suitable house was found, I'd have saved enough to justify keeping the motor
Funnily enough, when I 'sold' the idea to my Wife it was on the basis that it was likely to be sold around now... however she loves it and would only let me sell it to buy an Exige or an Evora 
but I don't have the money to upgrade just yet.
Here are some more photos
Linky
but I don't have the money to upgrade just yet.Here are some more photos
Linky
Edited by MagicalTrevor on Wednesday 5th June 14:33
kambites said:
I bought my 2004 S2 111S for 16k in 2007 and think it's probably worth about 14k now, looking at what's out there. I suspect it'll fall a little lower before stabilising in absolute terms (in other words continuing to fall in real terms).
Thanks - that sounds fair. Apparently decent 111s' with average miles seem to start at about £13k looking at the classifieds. Can't argue with losing £2-3k over 6yrs tbh It interests me to see how the relative prices of the S1, early S2 and 111s will pan out over the next few years. Can't see the S1 falling below £7k for a reasonable one (not moon miles or crashed) and (although I may be / frequently am wrong) I can't see the S2 falling below S1 prices, which probably puts the early 111s' at a low of maybe £9-10k in 4-5yrs perhaps...?
MagicalTrevor said:
Funnily enough, when I 'sold' the idea to my Wife it was on the basis that it was likely to be sold around now... however she loves it and would only let me sell it to buy an Exige or an Evora but I don't have the money to upgrade just yet.
Here are some more photos
Linky
Man, if I could get the other half that interested I'd probably go out and buy one tomorrow! but I don't have the money to upgrade just yet.Here are some more photos
Linky
Edited by MagicalTrevor on Wednesday 5th June 14:33
The car looks fantastic - is it Cobalt Blue or one of the later flavours? I think the cars look great in the darker metallics - blue, grey.. have seen a few purple ones floating about that are growing on me too
Republik1980 said:
kambites said:
I bought my 2004 S2 111S for 16k in 2007 and think it's probably worth about 14k now, looking at what's out there. I suspect it'll fall a little lower before stabilising in absolute terms (in other words continuing to fall in real terms).
Thanks - that sounds fair. Apparently decent 111s' with average miles seem to start at about £13k looking at the classifieds. Can't argue with losing £2-3k over 6yrs tbh It interests me to see how the relative prices of the S1, early S2 and 111s will pan out over the next few years. Can't see the S1 falling below £7k for a reasonable one (not moon miles or crashed) and (although I may be / frequently am wrong) I can't see the S2 falling below S1 prices, which probably puts the early 111s' at a low of maybe £9-10k in 4-5yrs perhaps...?
My guess would be that good S2 111Ss and 111Rs will plateau at about 11-12k.
Republik1980 said:
Man, if I could get the other half that interested I'd probably go out and buy one tomorrow!
The car looks fantastic - is it Cobalt Blue or one of the later flavours? I think the cars look great in the darker metallics - blue, grey.. have seen a few purple ones floating about that are growing on me too
Magentic blue, it looks great in the sun. I was originally looking for grey/silver/black colours but when I saw mine in blue I changed my mind. People are going to look and stare at your car anyway so have a nice bright colour The car looks fantastic - is it Cobalt Blue or one of the later flavours? I think the cars look great in the darker metallics - blue, grey.. have seen a few purple ones floating about that are growing on me too
Republik1980 said:
far less likely to bite you in the arse with eye-watering unexpected costs should something go pop.
AA parts and labour cover can help keep your eyes dry. There's lovers and haters on the interweb, all I can say is for me personally, in the last 12 months, cost was around £80, claimed was around £1,000 (new radiator and throttle body)kambites said:
Yeah, I don't see the S2 111S ever dropping below 10k. If anything, S1 prices have risen slightly over the last year or two, from what I've seen.
My guess would be that good S2 111Ss and 111Rs will plateau at about 11-12k.
That seems reasonable. My nay-saying mate also suggested that S1's are starting to climb in price too - they certainly don't appear to have fallen at all recently. I feel a 111s price spreadsheet coming on.. My guess would be that good S2 111Ss and 111Rs will plateau at about 11-12k.
MagicalTrevor said:
Magentic blue, it looks great in the sun. I was originally looking for grey/silver/black colours but when I saw mine in blue I changed my mind. People are going to look and stare at your car anyway so have a nice bright colour
Thanks. I like the mono colours although tbh I don't think black suits the car very well. I think the Elise looks very clean and purposeful in white, although I don't think it was available until later cars.. I'd certainly consider the dark blues up there with the best of them, although I don't like light blues much on the S2.
SeanyD said:
AA parts and labour cover can help keep your eyes dry. There's lovers and haters on the interweb, all I can say is for me personally, in the last 12 months, cost was around £80, claimed was around £1,000 (new radiator and throttle body)
Thanks - I've always considered this a bit of an insurance-esq blag (charge everyone the average annual cost of repair plus a sizable margin) however I can appreciate that for some it will work in their favour. A grand for a rad and TB sounds pricey - is yours a later Toyota-engined car? I assume that cost included labour..?Is your figure of £80 for a year's cover? If so that does sound reasonable; although I suspect the cost would climb for older vehicles..
Republik1980 said:
Thanks - I've always considered this a bit of an insurance-esq blag (charge everyone the average annual cost of repair plus a sizable margin) however I can appreciate that for some it will work in their favour. A grand for a rad and TB sounds pricey - is yours a later Toyota-engined car? I assume that cost included labour..?
Is your figure of £80 for a year's cover? If so that does sound reasonable; although I suspect the cost would climb for older vehicles..
Not really pricey at all TBH, radiators are £250 up for a decent all alloy one, with the same labour cost (clam off job), Throttle body is north of £500 just to buy, fitting being fairly quick and easy. (yota 1zz engine)Is your figure of £80 for a year's cover? If so that does sound reasonable; although I suspect the cost would climb for older vehicles..
@Republik - the cost of a new all aluminium radiator is around £300.
To change it the front clam needs to come off. It's a *simple* job - all you have to do is undo somewhere between 10-20 bolts (a few on the clam, and then others on rad surround, rivets on rad fan etc), but it can also be a massively time consuming job.
A couple of the bolts are attached to rivnuts which spin with the bolts, so they tend to need drilling out. If everything is seized, look forward to lots of drilling.
None of it is vaguely difficult - but if you're paying a garage it will be costly. With that in mind I changed mine myself.
RE house deposit - I bought my Elise before my house, enjoyed the Elise for a couple of years, and then sold it for £400 less than I bought it 40k miles earlier. Once I had the house, I bought the Elise back again!
You're not going to make any money on an S2 but it's a safe place to put your cash while you have some fun, and you shouldn't lose much while saving for your house.
RE potential bills - head gasket can cost £500-£1000, other bills between £500-£1000 include the clutch (n/s suspension has to come apart to drop the gearbox) and suspension (£700-£1000 for new dampers etc).
Now buy the damn Elise already! £12k is more than enough for a lovely S2 - I've seen plenty of nice ones go for considerably less.
Edit: £500 for a throttle body from a 130bhp Toyota supermini engine seems bloody pricey to me! All this whining and grumbling about HGF on the K-series - a lot of the parts are considerably cheaper if anything does go wrong. /miser
To change it the front clam needs to come off. It's a *simple* job - all you have to do is undo somewhere between 10-20 bolts (a few on the clam, and then others on rad surround, rivets on rad fan etc), but it can also be a massively time consuming job.
A couple of the bolts are attached to rivnuts which spin with the bolts, so they tend to need drilling out. If everything is seized, look forward to lots of drilling.
None of it is vaguely difficult - but if you're paying a garage it will be costly. With that in mind I changed mine myself.
RE house deposit - I bought my Elise before my house, enjoyed the Elise for a couple of years, and then sold it for £400 less than I bought it 40k miles earlier. Once I had the house, I bought the Elise back again!
You're not going to make any money on an S2 but it's a safe place to put your cash while you have some fun, and you shouldn't lose much while saving for your house.
RE potential bills - head gasket can cost £500-£1000, other bills between £500-£1000 include the clutch (n/s suspension has to come apart to drop the gearbox) and suspension (£700-£1000 for new dampers etc).
Now buy the damn Elise already!
£12k is more than enough for a lovely S2 - I've seen plenty of nice ones go for considerably less. Edit: £500 for a throttle body from a 130bhp Toyota supermini engine seems bloody pricey to me! All this whining and grumbling about HGF on the K-series - a lot of the parts are considerably cheaper if anything does go wrong. /miser
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Wednesday 5th June 16:27
Thanks to you both.
SeanyD - Thanks for the extra information - I suspected your car was a later one. I imagine that AA cover for an earlier example would cost more, while the parts would cost less (I'd expect to be able to rob a TB from a shafted old Rover down the scrappy, assuming there are still some down there).
P- that sounds good. I'm not averse to doing jobs myself (in fact if capable I'd rather do it myself as it's invariably cheaper, gets more time spent on it and often gets done to a better standard). I am potentially a little screwed for workshop facilities though.
Sounds like you did it right with your Elise! I certainly don't expect to make any money, but it'd be nice to buy at the bottom of the market and not lose anything. I've never spent more than £1.5k on a car previously so depreciation is an experience I'm not familiar / do not wish to become familiar with.
Thanks for the example prices - the head gasket doesn't worry my too much as I imagine it's pretty straightforward and I might be able to do that myself. The clutch doesn't sound fun but I imagine they last well if not abused, dampers seem pricey but I suspect you'd get 40-50k out of a set perhaps?
I've still not convinced the mrs yet, so I think I'll sit tight for the moment, watch the market, do my research and save a few more pennies
SeanyD - Thanks for the extra information - I suspected your car was a later one. I imagine that AA cover for an earlier example would cost more, while the parts would cost less (I'd expect to be able to rob a TB from a shafted old Rover down the scrappy, assuming there are still some down there
). P- that sounds good. I'm not averse to doing jobs myself (in fact if capable I'd rather do it myself as it's invariably cheaper, gets more time spent on it and often gets done to a better standard). I am potentially a little screwed for workshop facilities though.
Sounds like you did it right with your Elise! I certainly don't expect to make any money, but it'd be nice to buy at the bottom of the market and not lose anything. I've never spent more than £1.5k on a car previously so depreciation is an experience I'm not familiar / do not wish to become familiar with.
Thanks for the example prices - the head gasket doesn't worry my too much as I imagine it's pretty straightforward and I might be able to do that myself. The clutch doesn't sound fun but I imagine they last well if not abused, dampers seem pricey but I suspect you'd get 40-50k out of a set perhaps?
I've still not convinced the mrs yet, so I think I'll sit tight for the moment, watch the market, do my research and save a few more pennies
Republik1980 said:
I've still not convinced the mrs yet, so I think I'll sit tight for the moment, watch the market, do my research and save a few more pennies
I explained to my Mrs that I was buying a car that wouldn't depreciate (or if at all it would be very small) and that if we did need to sell it then it could be easily sold. I was buying a car that I'd always wanted and I'd worked very hard to be able to buy and that I needed to scratch that itch. It was therefore relatively risk free and we'd have a fantastic car to take out at weekends.MagicalTrevor said:
I explained to my Mrs that I was buying a car that wouldn't depreciate (or if at all it would be very small) and that if we did need to sell it then it could be easily sold. I was buying a car that I'd always wanted and I'd worked very hard to be able to buy and that I needed to scratch that itch. It was therefore relatively risk free and we'd have a fantastic car to take out at weekends.
I applaud your rational approach, however I don't think mine would see it quite like that SeanyD said:
Just double checked and the price is £850 to be exact, factory order.
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