111R versus S

[Mevington]

I'm looking for my first Elise and have noticed that it is possible to pick up a 2004 111R for the same price as a 2010 S.

My question is which one to go for?

I would clearly prefer the extra power but how do the benefits of newer model weigh up against the added power and I suspect better residual price of a 111R?

Thanks

[pthelazyjourno]

Build quality is supposed to improve over time, so newer models tend to be better built.

Most people seem to promote the models they've bought, which is predictable enough.

Worth trying both and seeing what you actually think, you may have a preference after driving.

[Chromed]

The 111r is a chunk more powerfull and lighter .

[kambites]

At the risk of stating the obvious - drive examples of both and make up your own mind. There is no clear consensus on which version of the Elise is "best".

The 111R will be lighter and faster. The S will be newer with a few small improvements to things like NVH. Really early 111Rs had a very poor pedal setup, which made heal-and-toeing almost impossible, although you may not care.

[otolith]

The pedal setup can be massively improved by adjusting it, mind. I could heel and toe normally after it was adjusted, while before I was operating the side of the accelerator with the side of my foot.

[RedCarsGoFaster]

Where are you finding a 2004 111R for the same price as a 2010 S? Either the S is priced scarily low, or the 111R is priced too high . . .

If the S is the Toyota 134bhp model, there are a number of differences and its down to your taste.

From late 2006 onwards (so all 'yota S cars), all Elises got revised front lights, LED tail-lights, revised pedal box with DBW throttle, and Probax seats. If you're buying a daily driver, do not underestimate the importance of that last addition.

From 2007 onwards they started to be available with airbags and the new dash with start button.

In terms of engine differences, the 111R makes a chunk more power, but only above 6,200 rpm (or 5,700 rpm with a remap). Great on track, but just be aware that for a standard car that cam-change corresponds to about 60mph in second gear.
The power lines are pretty much the same to the cam change point, but the S develops maximum torque at 4000 rather than 6000 rpm.

Try to drive both. I think the linear power curve on the S makes more sense for most road use, but that kick in the back can be addictive . . .

(disclosure - yes, I bought an S)

[Mevington]

Thanks for all the responses. Very useful. I have indeed driven both a 111r and and s - the 111r definitely felt harder but the one I drove did not have a touring pack and the s did. So I think I need to get into a 111r touring to compare fairly.

Apologies, but as noticed, I made a typo and the s I was talking about was a 2007 model not a 2010 model!

[otolith]

RedCarsGoFaster said:

In terms of engine differences, the 111R makes a chunk more power, but only above 6,200 rpm (or 5,700 rpm with a remap). Great on track, but just be aware that for a standard car that cam-change corresponds to about 60mph in second gear.

Erm - it doesn't, you know.

For a standard car, with the change up occurring at 6200rpm, you are looking at;

	6200rpm	8000rpm	8500rpm
1st Gear	32	41	43
2nd Gear	48	62	65
3rd Gear	66	86	91
4th Gear	84	109
5th Gear	107	138
6th Gear	120

For a car with a reflash to lower the cam change to 5700rpm, these are the speeds;

	5700rpm	8000rpm	8500rpm
1st Gear	29	41	43
2nd Gear	44	62	65
3rd Gear	61	86	91
4th Gear	78	109
5th Gear	99	138
6th Gear	111

Worth mentioning also that the high lift cam disengages at lower revs than it engages - you can let the revs fall below 6200rpm without it going back to the low lift cam. I can't remember what revs it does disengage at, and mine has been reflashed - I thought it was in the manual, but it isn't.

The rev limit is 8000rpm or transiently 8500rpm in the lower gears.

RedCarsGoFaster said:

The power lines are pretty much the same to the cam change point, but the S develops maximum torque at 4000 rather than 6000 rpm.

The R runs shorter gears, though, because it revs higher, giving a greater multiplication of torque to the wheels.

[RedCarsGoFaster]

otolith said:

Erm - it doesn't, you know.

I am always happy to be corrected with charts and tables

OP, please ignore my comments accordingly!

[otolith]

It might have felt a bit like that, though, you probably don't want to be looking at the speedo when it's happening!

When I first got my Elise, I found I was actually driving slower on a lot of roads because the noise and the closeness to the ground made it feel as if I was driving faster than I actually was.

[Mevington]

otolith said:

It might have felt a bit like that, though, you probably don't want to be looking at the speedo when it's happening!

When I first got my Elise, I found I was actually driving slower on a lot of roads because the noise and the closeness to the ground made it feel as if I was driving faster than I actually was.

I agree! Felt like I was really travelling only to look in mirror and see little fiat right on my tail still.

[bordseye]

I own a 111R. I also went on the Lotus Bronze driver training day using their new S Elises. I honestly dont think I would have had any more fun round Hethel in my R than I did in the S. If anything the S is a bit more thrashable since you dont have to worry about rev limits and over revving.

Trouble is, if you buy the S you will always end up thinking you should have had the one with the higher power even if in real life it doesnt give you much benefit.

[piers1]

Worth also remembering that the R allows for supercharging when you need more power. Having had a friend with an S, the R is faster below 6200, noticably, as the revs rise, then once into 2nd cam, the S is then no comparison. My admission is that I have a 111R and after 60k miles of road and track in it, never tire of the 2nd cam, and have'nt even lowered it!

As always, try both and see which you prefer.