Target weight - S2 Sport 190
Discussion
I've been looking at the whole S1 vs S2 debate (with a Honda conversion planned) and on the whole I think the S2 does look better from some angles but hear people say things along the lines of "nothing drives like an S1", which makes it a tough decision!
Is this really true when comparing the early k-series S2 to the S1? Would I be attempting the impossible trying to get an S2 to be as raw/fun/drivers car as the S1, assuming they're both well sorted with Nitrons, uprated brakes etc?
Anyway - has anyone achieved the stated factory S2 190 weight of 710kg (or sub 700kg for that matter) through modifying another S2 k series variant? What sort of budget would be needed in doing so?
Cheers!
Is this really true when comparing the early k-series S2 to the S1? Would I be attempting the impossible trying to get an S2 to be as raw/fun/drivers car as the S1, assuming they're both well sorted with Nitrons, uprated brakes etc?
Anyway - has anyone achieved the stated factory S2 190 weight of 710kg (or sub 700kg for that matter) through modifying another S2 k series variant? What sort of budget would be needed in doing so?
Cheers!
Edited by Sloch on Monday 25th March 06:29
Sloch said:
I've been looking at the whole S1 vs S2 debate (with a Honda conversion planned) and on the whole I think the S2 does look better from some angles but hear people say things along the lines of "nothing drives like an S1", which makes it a tough decision!
Is this really true when comparing the early k-series S2 to the S1? Would I be attempting the impossible trying to get an S2 to be as raw/fun/drivers car as the S1, assuming they're both well sorted with Nitrons, uprated brakes etc?
Anyway - has anyone achieved the stated factory S2 190 weight of 710kg (or sub 700kg for that matter) through modifying another S2 k series variant? What sort of budget would be needed in doing so?
Cheers!
Haven't seen or heard of any S2s that weigh less than 700kg - most early cars are in the 760-800kg ballpark. Is this really true when comparing the early k-series S2 to the S1? Would I be attempting the impossible trying to get an S2 to be as raw/fun/drivers car as the S1, assuming they're both well sorted with Nitrons, uprated brakes etc?
Anyway - has anyone achieved the stated factory S2 190 weight of 710kg (or sub 700kg for that matter) through modifying another S2 k series variant? What sort of budget would be needed in doing so?
Cheers!
Edited by Sloch on Monday 25th March 06:29
List of weights on SELOC - lightest S190 is 767kg, really don't see how you're going to get close to 700kg without getting creative.
Lightweight battery, ditch the HVAC, ditch the window mechanisms, perspex windows, carbon seats, smaller, lighter wheels, ditch the roof...
Even then I'd still imagine you're going to be north of 720kg, and there's not a lot else you can strip out!
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Monday 25th March 07:49
Cheers for the replies - spotted a S190 for sale with a quoted wet weight of 704kg. It would seem either that's porkies or something must be different mod-wise there. It's still for sale right now I'm sure.
Can anyone comment on the raw/fun/event factor of a S2 k series vs an S1 with weight saving/suspension/brake mods?
Is it that much of a difference that it's worth sacrificing looks for a better drive?
Can anyone comment on the raw/fun/event factor of a S2 k series vs an S1 with weight saving/suspension/brake mods?
Is it that much of a difference that it's worth sacrificing looks for a better drive?
Having gone S2 - S1 - S2 I can say *personally speaking* that the S1 is a little more nimble than an S2(with similar mods, Nitrons, ARB,same tyres - although I'm talking Toyota S2)but it really does come down to personal preference and ultimately driving style.
My S1 felt slightly more agile but slightly less stable than the S2.
It really does come down to what >you< want from the car and the best suggestion is to take both for a long drive and decide yourself because it can be discussed until the cows come home
My S1 felt slightly more agile but slightly less stable than the S2.
It really does come down to what >you< want from the car and the best suggestion is to take both for a long drive and decide yourself because it can be discussed until the cows come home
Scuffers said:
No reason an S2 Rover chassis cannot be mad to handle like an S1, The Only Real Issue Is getting The Weight Down.
Lotus Have Always lied About weights, orriginal Sport 190s Were Way over 700, Mine Was Some 750+
S2s Are 20-30 More...
Toyota Cars Are Anither kettle Of Fish.
So with the same setup (and some weight loss on the S2) they should feel similarly eventful to drive? Lotus Have Always lied About weights, orriginal Sport 190s Were Way over 700, Mine Was Some 750+
S2s Are 20-30 More...
Toyota Cars Are Anither kettle Of Fish.
Any idea what the extra weight is made up of? Is it more sound deadening or something more?
Lets say I get an S2 (Rover) converted by Maidstone with the full engine, suspension and brake mods - what would I roughly need to spend to get the car in the 700-750kg area?
Edited by Sloch on Tuesday 26th March 19:58
Sloch said:
So with the same setup (and some weight loss on the S2) they should feel similarly eventful to drive?
Any idea what the extra weight is made up of? Is it more sound deadening or something more?
Lets say I get an S2 (Rover) converted by Maidstone with the full engine, suspension and brake mods - what would I roughly need to spend to get the car in the 700-750kg area?
You need to decide what is the most important thing to you, is it weight of the vehicle, looks, comfort?Any idea what the extra weight is made up of? Is it more sound deadening or something more?
Lets say I get an S2 (Rover) converted by Maidstone with the full engine, suspension and brake mods - what would I roughly need to spend to get the car in the 700-750kg area?
Edited by Sloch on Tuesday 26th March 19:58
If weight seems to be the main goal then you need to go down the s1 route really, as a guide im aiming for about 660-670kg with my s1 and that with dragging around 22kg worth of supercharger kit and oil cooler kit, im currently at 705kg so have a way to go yet, but im only doing it to make the car faster on track rather than purely shooting for a number that sounds good.
mine is a s1 111s and I have a geo from before I bought it weighing 781kg but I dont know fuel loads etc
I would imagine to get a s2 with a k20 engine down to 700kg you would need full carbon body panel set inc doors, carbon seats, small battery, alloy fuel tank, lightweight exhaust, forged cup wheels, no roof, no stereo, lighter steering wheel with no airbag, stripped doors, no carpet, no heater, then just go around and replace everything steel with ali and anything ali thats no structural with carbon
jonnyfox in seloc has spent what must be over 5 years modding an S2 yota. Hes pared the chassis back pretty much as far as i think you can without it snapping in two and hes squeezed 230+ from a NA 2Z
Not sure what weight it got it down to but it was low, he sold me must of his throw outs so he could lose even more weight!
Not sure what weight it got it down to but it was low, he sold me must of his throw outs so he could lose even more weight!
Whilst it's true that the S1's low weight gave it a certain purity and of course multiple very subtle advantages in handling and performance, the S2 did move things on due to the greater budget Lotus had when developing it and experience from the S1. The S2 is lower front and rear for starters, stiffer, the aero gives slight downforce at speed rather than lift, and a whole load of component suppliers (for tyres, dampers etc) worked with Lotus to develop bespoke components, rather than the off the shelf items used for the S1. There's a frequently seen generalisation in the car world that more raw cars are better to drive, but whilst the Type Rs and GT3s of this world are better to drive and more raw than their comfy counterparts, it's not really a rule that works backwards or indeed all the time.
If test drives aren't possible, try to pop along to a club meeting and passenger in some different cars, including both S1s and S2s and see what you think. I was able to do a back to back S1 & S2 drive on some B roads when the S2 was launched and personally I preferred the way the S2 drove. Try to see for yourself though :-) But no, noisier does not mean a better driver's car, it just means a car is err.. noisier!
If test drives aren't possible, try to pop along to a club meeting and passenger in some different cars, including both S1s and S2s and see what you think. I was able to do a back to back S1 & S2 drive on some B roads when the S2 was launched and personally I preferred the way the S2 drove. Try to see for yourself though :-) But no, noisier does not mean a better driver's car, it just means a car is err.. noisier!
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 7th May 08:38
RobM77 said:
Whilst it's true that the S1's low weight gave it a certain purity and of course multiple very subtle advantages in handling and performance, the S2 did move things on due to the greater budget Lotus had when developing it and experience from the S1. The S2 is lower front and rear for starters, stiffer, the aero gives slight downforce at speed rather than lift, and a whole load of component suppliers (for tyres, dampers etc) worked with Lotus to develop bespoke components, rather than the off the shelf items used for the S1. There's a frequently seen generalisation in the car world that more raw cars are better to drive, but whilst the Type Rs and GT3s of this world are better to drive and more raw than their comfy counterparts, it's not really a rule that works backwards or indeed all the time.
If test drives aren't possible, try to pop along to a club meeting and passenger in some different cars, including both S1s and S2s and see what you think. I was able to do a back to back S1 & S2 drive on some B roads when the S2 was launched and personally I preferred the way the S2 drove. Try to see for yourself though :-) But no, noisier does not mean a better driver's car, it just means a car is err.. noisier!
All well and good, but you won't find many S1s still on standard Konis, so not sure the suspension argument is valid. Although I do think later S2s ride better, mainly due to the additional weight. If test drives aren't possible, try to pop along to a club meeting and passenger in some different cars, including both S1s and S2s and see what you think. I was able to do a back to back S1 & S2 drive on some B roads when the S2 was launched and personally I preferred the way the S2 drove. Try to see for yourself though :-) But no, noisier does not mean a better driver's car, it just means a car is err.. noisier!
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 7th May 08:38
pthelazyjourno said:
All well and good, but you won't find many S1s still on standard Konis, so not sure the suspension argument is valid. Although I do think later S2s ride better, mainly due to the additional weight.
that's actually a very valid point, mass makes a very good damper, hence why Roll's of old weighing 3+ tons ride very smoothlypthelazyjourno said:
All well and good, but you won't find many S1s still on standard Konis, so not sure the suspension argument is valid. Although I do think later S2s ride better, mainly due to the additional weight.
Personally I'd suggest that springs and dampers on a Lotus but not tuned by Lotus are somewhat missing the point of owning one (Lotus being the number one car company in the world for developing ride and handling). That's just my opinion of course and I realise I'll get hassle on here for saying that.The later S2s do indeed ride better, although I'd always assumed it was just incremental improvements, as with the refinement, steering etc. It may well be the weight, but I'm not sure I follow the engineering logic behind that.
RobM77 said:
Personally I'd suggest that springs and dampers on a Lotus but not tuned by Lotus are somewhat missing the point of owning one (Lotus being the number one car company in the world for developing ride and handling). That's just my opinion of course and I realise I'll get hassle on here for saying that.
sorry, but that's just bull...Lotus used the cheapest components they could source, ride&handling guys then had to made do with what they were given.
you honestly think a <£15 damper is going to be their choice performance wise over a several hundred £ damper?
if your theory is correct, why do lotus then sell LSS/Ohlins/Nitrons/etc?
Scuffers said:
RobM77 said:
Personally I'd suggest that springs and dampers on a Lotus but not tuned by Lotus are somewhat missing the point of owning one (Lotus being the number one car company in the world for developing ride and handling). That's just my opinion of course and I realise I'll get hassle on here for saying that.
sorry, but that's just bull...Lotus used the cheapest components they could source, ride&handling guys then had to made do with what they were given.
you honestly think a <£15 damper is going to be their choice performance wise over a several hundred £ damper?
if your theory is correct, why do lotus then sell LSS/Ohlins/Nitrons/etc?
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