New Elise S1 soon, first track day very soon ...
Discussion
We were talking about me getting an Elise S1. I just have tracked my Corvette C5 and my MX5 (both front engine and RWD). So the Elise will be a new experience for me.
The model I'll get is a MMC. I have been told the discs did not like tracks.
- I won't have time to change them for my first track session : what would be your advice on that day?
- then, what would be your advice on brakres replacementn staying reasonable price wise?
braddo said:
An Elise on standard suspension and tyres is wonderfully progressive when around the edge of adhesion. 
So I guess you mean I should wait a bit before upgrading to Semi-slick. In order to keep that "progressiveness" and feel the car. My plan was to upgrade quickly to AD05/06 LTS. What more progressive tyres would you advice then?The model I'll get is a MMC. I have been told the discs did not like tracks.
- I won't have time to change them for my first track session : what would be your advice on that day?
- then, what would be your advice on brakres replacementn staying reasonable price wise?
My car had the Yokohama LTS AD05(? or whatever was the version at the time a few years ago) and that's the kind of tyre I'm talking about, which is still a road biased tyre compared to more hardcore stuff like Yoko A048s and Toyo R888s. 
I can't help on the MMC brakes, sorry, mine had conventional brakes. I think it will partly depend on the driver and braking style - if you are light on brakes perhaps the MMCs will hold up OK on track (especially if standard power levels and tyres).
I can't help on the MMC brakes, sorry, mine had conventional brakes. I think it will partly depend on the driver and braking style - if you are light on brakes perhaps the MMCs will hold up OK on track (especially if standard power levels and tyres).
Bossv8 said:
So I guess you mean I should wait a bit before upgrading to Semi-slick. In order to keep that "progressiveness" and feel the car. My plan was to upgrade quickly to AD05/06 LTS. What more progressive tyres would you advice then?
The model I'll get is a MMC. I have been told the discs did not like tracks.
- I won't have time to change them for my first track session : what would be your advice on that day?
- then, what would be your advice on brakres replacementn staying reasonable price wise?
There are a couple of problems with MMCs with regard to track use in that they tend to encounter one of two failure modes (which is a great shame as, IMO, they provide a wonderful degree of feel).The model I'll get is a MMC. I have been told the discs did not like tracks.
- I won't have time to change them for my first track session : what would be your advice on that day?
- then, what would be your advice on brakres replacementn staying reasonable price wise?
1. If you ask too much of the discs in one go (such as by running sticky tyres and stopping hard) the surface of the disc can overheat and the inside of the wheelarch will get spattered with the rather hot remains of what used to be the braking surface of the disc. Needless to say, this is not very good in terms of the disc's stopping ability!
2. If you ask too much of the discs over time (I think I did around 20 trackdays before I had a problem) the discs can crack with the rotor separating from the bell. This is catastrophic in terms of the disc's stopping ability as the wheel will continue to rotate while the disc (or rotor to be specific) stays stationary. It's also rather scary as there is no braking at all - you just hear a click as the brake pedal hits the bulkheadl!
In terms of upgrades, I'm currently using Eliseparts discs (steel rotor on ali bell) with Pagid pads (RS4-2 on the front and RS14 on the rear) and they provide excellent stopping power.
With regard to tyres, I'd suggest using the Yokohama Advan Neova LTS (which I think is the same thing as AD05/06 LTS) - they're an excellent road tyre and also make a very good track tyre compromise for wet and dry (I've always found them very progressive). If you end up wanting more grip, the A048 is excellent (but rather less progressive).
I'm 100% with Braddo on this one. Lotus are probably the most respected - ok, definitely the most respected car company in the world for developing ride and handling. They cut costs in lots of areas to devote as much time and effort as possible in making their cars ride, handle and drive beautiful. As such, before messing, I'd go on a few track days with the car as Lotus initially intended. That also means should you want to change anything in the future you've got a baseline in your mind to work from. I'd also recommend getting a full geo done on the car when you get it for the same reasons.
I agree about sticking as much as possible to the intention of the manufacturer in that specific case. Lotus were made with the track in mind. "mine" has just two upgrades: s2 shocks and a direct induction. I would not say the same about the Corvette. It definitely needed upgrades because it was firstly a GT in destination, not a track car.
And, then I like the idea of "working from that basis" to make it perfect in MY criterias.
Then, there seem to be some important reliability upgrades to be done. What is your opinion about this?
And, then I like the idea of "working from that basis" to make it perfect in MY criterias.
Then, there seem to be some important reliability upgrades to be done. What is your opinion about this?
I'm not aware of any reliability upgrades myself I'm afraid. On the subject of your S2 dampers though, is that a normal mod to make? I'd have thought they'd only work with S2 springs.
edited to add: Apparently this is indeed a common mod, and adapter plates are available to fit them to an S1 (an S2 is lower than an S1):
http://www.midlandslotus.co.uk/forum/topic/14987-s...
http://www.eliseparts.com/products/show/73/465/low...
edited to add: Apparently this is indeed a common mod, and adapter plates are available to fit them to an S1 (an S2 is lower than an S1):
http://www.midlandslotus.co.uk/forum/topic/14987-s...
http://www.eliseparts.com/products/show/73/465/low...
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 15th March 10:29
It sounds like you don;'t actually have the S1 yet, so answering these queries is a bit tricky.
Every S1 will now be... 12 years old at least (and cars with MMCs probably closer to, or over 15). Thus, you'll find that either many of the weaker parts may have already been changed/upgraded (and if they haven;t, I'd walk away, it won't be the car to get the best out of straight away).
Therefore its prtetty tricky to comment about what wuld need upgrading until you actually have the car you want to track, but as I guess if you spot koni shocks they will probably be toast by now (and I'd want to give them a real good check over before taking your "new" S1 on track if it still has them). On a car this old, the wishbones will almost inevitably be very corroded, but that shouldn;t be a big issue, but you will want to check the bushes and the toe links before you run the car hard through corners. Also plastic brake hoses will not be a good sign for a car you'll want to track straight away and neither would a red (plastic) clutch hose.
MMCs will be ok as long as you treat them right, warming them up and cooling them down progressively and not treating them badly (dont use them softly for long periods, use them short and sharp) but if TDs are your thing, you may want to swap them out. Also check to see the date of the last cam belt change (should be done every 3 years) and coolant change too (2 years I think and should be with OAT coolant).
Once you are happy with that lot.... its probably in shape to head out onto track with.... On top of that.... at some point you may want to do some preventative work, a PRRT, replace the front rad if it has plastic end caps, that sort of thing
Only once you have done that lot, would I condsider semi-slick tyres like Toyo 888s.... and to get anything like the best out of those, you'll want to upgrade the dampers and springs, the ARB and make sure you have upgraded toe-links.
Hope that hasn't put you off too much!
Every S1 will now be... 12 years old at least (and cars with MMCs probably closer to, or over 15). Thus, you'll find that either many of the weaker parts may have already been changed/upgraded (and if they haven;t, I'd walk away, it won't be the car to get the best out of straight away).
Therefore its prtetty tricky to comment about what wuld need upgrading until you actually have the car you want to track, but as I guess if you spot koni shocks they will probably be toast by now (and I'd want to give them a real good check over before taking your "new" S1 on track if it still has them). On a car this old, the wishbones will almost inevitably be very corroded, but that shouldn;t be a big issue, but you will want to check the bushes and the toe links before you run the car hard through corners. Also plastic brake hoses will not be a good sign for a car you'll want to track straight away and neither would a red (plastic) clutch hose.
MMCs will be ok as long as you treat them right, warming them up and cooling them down progressively and not treating them badly (dont use them softly for long periods, use them short and sharp) but if TDs are your thing, you may want to swap them out. Also check to see the date of the last cam belt change (should be done every 3 years) and coolant change too (2 years I think and should be with OAT coolant).
Once you are happy with that lot.... its probably in shape to head out onto track with.... On top of that.... at some point you may want to do some preventative work, a PRRT, replace the front rad if it has plastic end caps, that sort of thing
Only once you have done that lot, would I condsider semi-slick tyres like Toyo 888s.... and to get anything like the best out of those, you'll want to upgrade the dampers and springs, the ARB and make sure you have upgraded toe-links.
Hope that hasn't put you off too much!
Elise S1 did her first track day at Abbeville. Extremely happy about the car. My instructor told me the chassis and geo were perfect. Nothing to change there. I was extremely surprised to be able to make it drift and maintain the drift. I thought that it would be difficult for me coming from two front engine rwd cars (mx5 and corvette C5). Well no ... It was easy.
I was also pleased by the straight line performance for such small engine. A friend in Clio 3 Sport couldn't keep up.
Upgrades on the list:
- tyres: no. Instructor says those used tyres are perfect to learn the car.
- brakes: I will buy steel discs to replace the MCC. My instructor said Pajid R14 something like that?
- seats: oh my god! My arse still hurts. I think Lotus had found a way to make us stop every two hours on the highway. Any suggestion for better seats? More comfy and as much lateral support.
- steering wheel: a little bigger, and round would allow more accuracy.
Car did not overheat at all. So I guess I won't upgrade cooler or put a prrt kit, or should I?
I was also pleased by the straight line performance for such small engine. A friend in Clio 3 Sport couldn't keep up.
Upgrades on the list:
- tyres: no. Instructor says those used tyres are perfect to learn the car.
- brakes: I will buy steel discs to replace the MCC. My instructor said Pajid R14 something like that?
- seats: oh my god! My arse still hurts. I think Lotus had found a way to make us stop every two hours on the highway. Any suggestion for better seats? More comfy and as much lateral support.
- steering wheel: a little bigger, and round would allow more accuracy.
Car did not overheat at all. So I guess I won't upgrade cooler or put a prrt kit, or should I?
Bossv8 said:
- seats: oh my god! My arse still hurts. I think Lotus had found a way to make us stop every two hours on the highway. Any suggestion for better seats? More comfy and as much lateral support.
- steering wheel: a little bigger, and round would allow more accuracy.
Seats - S2 seats are much more comfy.- steering wheel: a little bigger, and round would allow more accuracy.
Steering wheel - the S1 wheel is round, but eccentric. Pretty much any aftermarket wheel will do as a replacement, but even if it is the same size you'll lose a bit of knee clearance with the wheel straight ahead (this may be an issue if you struggle to get in). I've got a round aftermarket wheel the same diameter as standard, although I've found when driving other people's Elises that it doesn't really bother me any more.
Steering Wheel: the best and safest way to drive on track is with your hands at quarter to three and to leave them there. If you do that then it won't matter what shape the wheel is. The eccentricity of the standard wheel is there to give leg clearance due to the Elise's flawed driving position - if you change it then be sure your legs are going to be ok. One way round this is to change it and buy a spacer to bring the wheel closer, allowing you to sit further back and unfold your legs a bit.
Bossv8 said:
- brakes: I will buy steel discs to replace the MCC. My instructor said Pajid R14 something like that?
I think Pagid RS14's are quite a track focused pad so need some heat in them, RS42's come quite highly recommended as well if you're looking for something for mixed road and track use.Bossv8 said:
- seats: oh my god! My arse still hurts. I think Lotus had found a way to make us stop every two hours on the highway. Any suggestion for better seats? More comfy and as much lateral support.
Plenty options out there. S1 111S seats are the same with a bit more padding, S2 seats better still, later S2 Touring Pack seats with Probax seats will fit as well but need to be fitted with the later style runners.Bossv8 said:
Car did not overheat at all. So I guess I won't upgrade cooler or put a prrt kit, or should I?
PRRT kit is more to reduce temperature fluctuation to try and avoid thermal shock to the head which can contribute to HGF rather than increasing cooling capacity.I also have been told Pajid RS14 were a bit too much for road tyres, even if the track will represent 70% of my usage, I'll stay with roads tyres for two reasons: feel the car before improve it and I know that semi slick can be hard on the toe link. So I guess I'll order Pajid RS42 and Ultimax discs.
Steering wheel: I have not been taught to keep my hands on the wheel at the same position. I know there are different approach on that matter, but mine is too keep my hands as close as 10:10 even if the wheel is turned. This is why I find this steering wheel awkward.
Seats, thanks for the info. I'll go for S2 or Probax. I have found a set of Rover S2's for 650 euros and a set of Probax for 1000 euros (all included). Thats quiet a difference. I don't know if it is justified.
Steering wheel: I have not been taught to keep my hands on the wheel at the same position. I know there are different approach on that matter, but mine is too keep my hands as close as 10:10 even if the wheel is turned. This is why I find this steering wheel awkward.
Seats, thanks for the info. I'll go for S2 or Probax. I have found a set of Rover S2's for 650 euros and a set of Probax for 1000 euros (all included). Thats quiet a difference. I don't know if it is justified.
Bossv8 said:
Steering wheel: I have not been taught to keep my hands on the wheel at the same position. I know there are different approach on that matter, but mine is too keep my hands as close as 10:10 even if the wheel is turned. This is why I find this steering wheel awkward.
There are different approach for road driving, yes, but for the track, I'd try and change. There is no disagreement on this issue amongst ARDS Instructors anywhere, so I'm not sure who's taught you (for the track?). The reasons are: a) you know where straight ahead is at any point, which is crucial when the car's moving around all the time b) the input from both hands is the same (and opposite), so easier to measure out precisely c) the weight of your hands is balanced, so you won't 'fall' from side to side d) you can keep a lighter grip on the wheel so you can feel the steering feedback more and have finer control - that's why the spokes are where they are on sports/track cars. Jean Alesi was a notable exception to this rule, but he really was a (very talented) exception amongst tens of thousands of racing drivers. Feel free to follow his lead, but I'd strongly recommend at least trying the above method.This is what surprised me the most (even if there were a few "turnarounds"). My instructor said it was because the chassis was perferctly set and he adviced me not to change anything in that regards.
Of course, the MX5 is still much more progressive. This is why I let it to my daughter.
Of course, the MX5 is still much more progressive. This is why I let it to my daughter.
I'd agree by saying that my Elise (S2; I've not owned an S1) and 2-Eleven were and are extremely communicative and progressive up to and around modest slip angles; modest, but beyond the point of maximum grip. It therefore follows that normal track driving is a joy. Where the Elise has a sting in its tail I think is in oversteer beyond that zone, where it shifts very quickly to high slip angles. This sting in the tail is a consequence of its relatively rearward weight distribution (a necessity from using an off the shelf range of engines designed for transverse engined front wheel drive cars).
As a side point, the S2 guarded against this by running a lower ride height and therefore CofG (which I think the OP's S1 does as well), and by changing the aero from mild lift at speed, moreso at the rear; to mild downforce at speed, moreso at the rear. No doubt the S2's introduction of bespoke tyres and dampers developed for the Elise helped too.
As a side point, the S2 guarded against this by running a lower ride height and therefore CofG (which I think the OP's S1 does as well), and by changing the aero from mild lift at speed, moreso at the rear; to mild downforce at speed, moreso at the rear. No doubt the S2's introduction of bespoke tyres and dampers developed for the Elise helped too.
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