Road tuning a nitron equipped track orientated car

[bencollins]

Wondering what is involved to detune a track biased setup to "fast road".
Just turning a a few nuts, easing of rebound damp and tweaking geo or at lot more than that?

[Thorburn]

You could try softening off the damping with the adjusters as you say, or alternatively I think Nitron can refurb and re-valve the dampers along with changing spring rates if you want to go to a full road setup.

[randy]

What setup are you starting with?

[foz01]

randy said:

What setup are you starting with?

Sorry to hijack what's the cost of your 46mm nitron s1 dampers btw?

Ta

[bencollins]

thanks for the replies.
Nitron 3 way adjustable dampers with upgraded Eibach springs (covered approx 500 road miles.

[randy]

bencollins said:

thanks for the replies.
Nitron 3 way adjustable dampers with upgraded Eibach springs (covered approx 500 road miles.

On the three way you have loads of adjustment so you shouldn't need a revalve and you have added flexibility to wind out fast bump which helps. Check the lengths with Nitron, race 3-ways are often supplied shorter to suit lower 'race' ride heights and this may be a problem. What spring rates?

[randy]

foz01 said:

Sorry to hijack what's the cost of your 46mm nitron s1 dampers btw?

Ta

Same as the regular Nitrons - £1288.30+VAT if you go for helper spring all round.

[turbotoaster]

Hi Randy, hopefully you will see this and be able to offer a little bit of advise.

Bought a TT supercharged silver s1 from a guy back in october and you supplied and fitted 1 way NTRs on it with 450/650 eibach springs with rear helper springer, its currently running a pilbeam ARB on middle setting, I went for a run down some country lanes with another friend on S2 billys and I found I was crashing alot with the bumps where he has pretty stable.

I understand you can only go so far in terms of softening up before you need to revalve, but any idea how far I can soften the dampers(ie how many clicks from hard/soft) before I go out of the range you will have valved them for(i want to keep the valving and springs due to track days) Its just to take the edge off them around where I live.

[randy]

turbotoaster said:

Hi Randy, hopefully you will see this and be able to offer a little bit of advise.

Bought a TT supercharged silver s1 from a guy back in october and you supplied and fitted 1 way NTRs on it with 450/650 eibach springs with rear helper springer, its currently running a pilbeam ARB on middle setting, I went for a run down some country lanes with another friend on S2 billys and I found I was crashing alot with the bumps where he has pretty stable.

I understand you can only go so far in terms of softening up before you need to revalve, but any idea how far I can soften the dampers(ie how many clicks from hard/soft) before I go out of the range you will have valved them for(i want to keep the valving and springs due to track days) Its just to take the edge off them around where I live.

So I can help more, a few questions: What tyres are you on and what pressures, what tyres was he on and where were the dampers set to?

Knock the front ARB back to full soft to start with (ie the holes towards the rear of the car).

[PascalBuyens]

bencollins said:

thanks for the replies.
Nitron 3 way adjustable dampers with upgraded Eibach springs (covered approx 500 road miles.

The only thing I changed on mine was to set the springs a bit softer. Always ran the 340R geo track settings... (1999 S1 Elise)

[Esprit]

turbotoaster said:

Hi Randy, hopefully you will see this and be able to offer a little bit of advise.

Bought a TT supercharged silver s1 from a guy back in october and you supplied and fitted 1 way NTRs on it with 450/650 eibach springs with rear helper springer, its currently running a pilbeam ARB on middle setting, I went for a run down some country lanes with another friend on S2 billys and I found I was crashing alot with the bumps where he has pretty stable.

I understand you can only go so far in terms of softening up before you need to revalve, but any idea how far I can soften the dampers(ie how many clicks from hard/soft) before I go out of the range you will have valved them for(i want to keep the valving and springs due to track days) Its just to take the edge off them around where I live.

What ride height are you running? I run an identical setup (minus the pilbeam rollbar, I have the Stock S1 Exige Adjustable rollbar) and 100/110 ride height and mine's actually pretty good on bumpy NZ roads. Could do with a bit more roll stiffness on track though, Randy, you got any good advice on what rollbar is a good step up on the stock Exige one? I'm currently at full hard on the Stock Exige one and I've still got too much roll for my liking on track, and have trouble getting the back end to bite when being a bit more aggressive (would happily stiffen the front a touch and sacrifice some front end grip for a little more rear end stability)

[/hijack]

[turbotoaster]

randy said:

So I can help more, a few questions: What tyres are you on and what pressures, what tyres was he on and where were the dampers set to?

Knock the front ARB back to full soft to start with (ie the holes towards the rear of the car).

The tyres are on it are yoko advan neova lts, running around 22/24, though need to check that again as I think they are slightly less than that, strangely enough the fronts where 15 and the rears 20 when i first bought it and it seems alot softer to drive, it was only when i checked them that I thought that would be to low, turning the pressures up made it more crashy(as you would expect)

Its hard to work out what tyres he was on as I have loads of invoices for ao48s and 888s so it could have been then.

I understand it was used mostly for trackdays so I agree on the setup you have chosen, its just for the times when im on the road it would be nice to calm it down over the low speed sharp compression(small pot holes etc)

I havent messed with the damper settings yet so dont know what they are set to but thought it would be useful to know how far you recommend I go with it, ill probably try softening them up 3 clicks all around and see how it feels.

How come you would soften the ARB, I would have though you would want it hard but with a softer spring/damper so you make it nice to drive on the road but calms down the roll in the corners.

if not im more than happy to learn about properly setting these up as from next year ill be running semi-slicks with my new exige body in time attack(hence not wanting to revalve/spring change) so any info you can give me will be gratefully recieved

[bencollins]

Ok well it has been bought, easing off the suspension is now the least of my problems, red haired fiery SWMBO to inform and appease at GMT 18.00.
If there are no posts on my account for six months, please inform plod and dig up the new looking patio.
Ta for the replies, I reckon there seems several options, easing off things, a revalve, and/or visit to a suspension / geo expert or a last resort, doing a swap for bilsteins with a track nutter.

pic added

Edited by bencollins on Thursday 7th March 07:44

[djroadboy]

If you fancy swapping your engine setup with a 180bhp VVC and cash your way let me know.

Dan

[bencollins]

Haha no chance.
Its a work of art by a gentleman in Lincolnshire called Andrew Chapman.
Funny that the 1.8T K doesnt seem a preferred swap, lightweight with a bit of torque.
Uprated HG and should be pretty nice I hope, buying on ebay is rather nervewracking.
By the way SWYMBO went nuts for about 30 mins, calm now

[djroadboy]

One thing that concerned me was there was no mention of banded or ductile liners. I wouldn't expect standard liners to last that long at that level of output.

Looks like a great job but I wouldn't have considered it if I couldn't inspect that chassis repair in person. Don't think it will be particularly easy to sell on either. Should be fun though.

The K turbo swap is a decent idea but its not cheap to do it properly as its fairly complex to fit in an Elise and make it reliable.

Dan

[turbotoaster]

bencollins said:

Ok well it has been bought, easing off the suspension is now the least of my problems, red haired fiery SWMBO to inform and appease at GMT 18.00.
If there are no posts on my account for six months, please inform plod and dig up the new looking patio.
Ta for the replies, I reckon there seems several options, easing off things, a revalve, and/or visit to a suspension / geo expert or a last resort, doing a swap for bilsteins with a track nutter.

pic added

Edited by bencollins on Thursday 7th March 07:44

Whats the spec on your engine?

You have your oil cooler the same place as ive got mine.

Speaking on using the 1.8T engine, im planning on buying the turbo exhaust manifold and putting a gt2871 on it at the end of the month, should take me up to 330bhp, because it have the turbotechnics low comp pistons and stronger rods alot of the work is already done, just plum a downpipe up to my exhaust and im done!!

[bencollins]

turbotoaster said:

Whats the spec on your engine?
You have your oil cooler the same place as ive got mine.
Speaking on using the 1.8T engine, im planning on buying the turbo exhaust manifold and putting a gt2871 on it at the end of the month, should take me up to 330bhp, because it have the turbotechnics low comp pistons and stronger rods alot of the work is already done, just plum a downpipe up to my exhaust and im done!!

Dont know the spec on the engine, only whats from the advert and photographs. i.e.

Engine- 1.8 Rover K series turbo conversion using the factory turbocharged engine from the Rover 75.
This was a low mileage engine having only covered approx 20,000 miles.
Emerald ECU with 3 stage map.
Mapped by Dave Walker.
Charge cooled.
Custom race spec stainless steel exhaust manifold and system inc. race cat ( all very high quality).
Alloy air box assembly with foam filter.
Coil pack conversion.
Polished stainless steel air intake pipe and turbo boost pipe.
Silicone hoses.
Alloy large capacity F1 spec radiator with twin fan upgrade.
Cool running thermostat.
Recent new turbo charger (brand new unit, not reconditioned).
Setrab oil cooler.
Remote oil filter housing.
Nimbus heatshield on bulkhead with additional gold leaf and gold leaf to underside of engine cover.
Polished VVC alluminiun inlet manifold.
Polished cam cover.
Custom stainless coil pack cover.
Recent upgraded headgasket.
Cambelt kit and water pump.
Just had oil and filter change and new spark plugs.
Transmission- Exige gearbox with longer 5th gear.

the 215 is apparently fairly standard upgrade, or at least ive seen it on other mapped efforts on various threads.
The manifold itself looks quite a sweet design in standard form and the small turbo starts boosting at 1800rpm, flat torque.

Great info on the K here….. http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/engines/engin...
Especially interesting titbit on the teeny valve chamfer that adds 15hp and loads more real world torque.

http://www.emeraldm3d.com/about-us
Unfortunately the 215bhp map wont pass the MOT in Sweden so ill have to work something out, i.e remap more gently with the help of someone who knows what they are doing. The std engine is 150hp (75) or 157hp (MG Zt-T),

I dont reckon a map 27% north of std is too extreme, i.e. 215bhp. 330bhp sounds a bit much for an already thin liner "soft spec" alloy block if thats what your using, as the chap over alludes to. However, whatever floats your boat! Looking at the other threads, seems everything else is possible with the right intercooling/chargecooling. The car has now been test driven by a trusted friend and all is well. Myself personally would have been quite happy with a vanilla 118hp elise, but I need a shiny engine for a little hobby engine build project which is moving forward with glacial speed. My previous cars include a NA 1.7D astra, vauxhall viva, volvo 340, morris minor traveller, fiat uno in a frock. 0-60 in 3.9secs is going to be interesting, probably terrifying - course needed!

Having said that, most of us are conditioned to driving turbo diesels etc with low end power, also i have mechanical sympathy, so cruising at 2500 not 3500 will be good (it also has a longer 5th gear than usual apparently). In reality the car will be sat at 70mph in 5th 98% most of its life. Since the invention of the turbo charger / compressor, it seems a nonsense to need any more than 3 cylinders. If you need more oxygen/power, replace capacity with boost, The ronin thread illustrates that point very well.

Nicked from carpages : http://www.carpages.co.uk/mg_rover/mg_rover_75_tur...
“The Rover 75 1.8T, however, takes advantage of Garrett’s latest technology, using their new T100 turbine wheel design in a GT20 turbo-charger. Specifically designed to suit modern petrol engine characteristics, the T100 design contributes to the excellent driveability of the 1.8T under all speed and load conditions.
Associated with the turbo-charger installation are a number of important engineering changes. A special exhaust manifold in cast stainless steel can reliably withstand temperatures in the region of 1000 °C. Uprated pistons and connecting rods are
fitted, with the piston configured to give a 9.2:1 compression ratio. An uprated oil pump provides a 12% higher oil flow rate to meet the turbine bearing lubrication requirements, while the modified main bearing ladder casting has an inlet for oil return from the turbo-charger.
The throttle body is of course sealed to retain turbo-charger boost pressure, with a suitably revised manifold pressure sensor, and the fuel system modified, with a returnless feed controlled by a pressure demand regulator, plus new fuel injectors with higher maximum flow rates. Modifications to meet the extra cooling airflow demands of the engine and intercooler include a revised undertray for the engine compartment.
The philosophy behind the 1.8T was to use moderate boost pressure, so that the compression ratio could be kept fairly high, (at 9.2:1, compared with 10.5:1 on the normal 1.8 engine), for maximum efficiency at lower engine speeds when running off-boost. Emphasis has also been placed on providing strong and even torque throughout the normal driving range - the curve is virtually flat between 2100rpm and 4000rpm with 215Nm(159lbs ft) developed throughout.
Such torque allows the 1.8T to easily pull higher gearing, using the 3.9:1 final drive of the 2.5-litre models in place of the 4.4:1 unit used for the regular 1.8- and 2.0-litre versions. As a result, the 1.8T has vigorous in-gear acceleration, achieving 30-50mph in fourth gear in 7.1 seconds.
Through the gears, the 1.8T leads the competition with a 0-60mph dash achieved in 9.1 seconds. Despite the brisk performance, the efficiency and high gearing of the 1.8T allows enhanced economy, with an official Combined figure of 35.3mpg and Extra Urban of 46.3mpg again leading the class.
On the road, the 1.8T engine refinement and response characteristics harmonise well with the Rover 75 chassis, making the car well balanced and enjoyable to drive at any speed.”
According to this website it has the same fuel economy than a 1.8
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-fi...
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-fi...
i.e. 1.8 35mpg, 1.8T

According to real users, this seems realistic, so Im hoping for @40mpg, not bad for 0-60 in under 5s (after demapping a bit)
http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?t=220396

The bad news is probably, now will have to get an Over 75 1.8T for normal duties, somehow life is easier when both cars are vaguely similar to fix. Anyhoo pick it up on the 25th April, chuffed to little mintballs.
Overall I reckon it’s a suitable uprade engine, without stretching too far from being “original”. Must be plenty in scrapyards and with an uprated HG and thermostat, bobs your uncle (literally in my case!).

[bencollins]

having trouble with picture uploading in the main text......

[bencollins]

djroadboy said:

One thing that concerned me was there was no mention of banded or ductile liners. I wouldn't expect standard liners to last that long at that level of output.
Looks like a great job but I wouldn't have considered it if I couldn't inspect that chassis repair in person. Don't think it will be particularly easy to sell on either. Should be fun though.
The K turbo swap is a decent idea but its not cheap to do it properly as its fairly complex to fit in an Elise and make it reliable.
Dan

re spec on the engine I only know what it is from the advert and my friends test drive, so it is a gamble.
Fair points, alloy block and weedy liners might not be long term with charge cooled 215 bhp.
Im looking into a more gentle remap for longevity, my car history is miserable, so 180BHP withe some decent mid range torque will be plenty for me.
In the end I can repair it if it goes wrong, and if it doesnt then great.

Cat C - this will definitely negatively affect resale value.
If its not a great fix, it can be improved, with additional metal.
The chassis is a metal fabrication, no voodoo magic there.
Having seen photos of the repair, and had it driven by a trusted friend, it looks pretty good.

I believe in peoples ability to repair things, trust independents as much "official manufacturers" (having seen some sloppiness first hand).
There are some really talented, clever, hard working people who work on cars.

I understand why cat C's exist, the chassis will never get back to "as good as new", but just because a single suspension bracket is ripped off, its a crying shame to bin an elise!
The bracket has been re fabricated in a decent way, more metal, bigger rivets etc and thats good enough for me.

Edited by bencollins on Saturday 9th March 15:22