Heel & Toe ? What am I doing wrong ?
Discussion
Hi All,
well I've watched the car limits video about 120 times and I'm booked on the course in March.
One technique is ye olde heel and toe. I've tried this in my elise as per walshy's instruction but I end up rather than heel and toeing (if that's a word), more sort of Toe and rolled top of foot...
I don't seem to have enough clearance to turn my foot sideways under the steering column.
What am I doing wrong ? I thought, "I know I'm sitting too close to the steering wheel i.e. leg is too bent to get underneath etc etc...but if I push my chair back I can't then reach the peddles properly.... someone tell me it doesn't matter and what I'm doing is fine please :-)
8.
well I've watched the car limits video about 120 times and I'm booked on the course in March.
One technique is ye olde heel and toe. I've tried this in my elise as per walshy's instruction but I end up rather than heel and toeing (if that's a word), more sort of Toe and rolled top of foot...
I don't seem to have enough clearance to turn my foot sideways under the steering column.
What am I doing wrong ? I thought, "I know I'm sitting too close to the steering wheel i.e. leg is too bent to get underneath etc etc...but if I push my chair back I can't then reach the peddles properly.... someone tell me it doesn't matter and what I'm doing is fine please :-)
8.
cre8toruk said:
I've tried this in my elise as per walshy's instruction but I end up rather than heel and toeing (if that's a word), more sort of Toe and rolled top of foot...
I think you'd need to be contortionist to use your heel! I use the same technique as yourself (I've no idea if it's right or not!)Edited by Platinum on Friday 1st February 20:10
Use the ball of your foot on the brake. Then roll your foot to blip the throttle with the outside of your foot. You will end up using some part of your foot just proximal to your little toe. ( Or under your 5th metatarsophalangeal joint.)
Leaping straight to heel'n'toe is a big jump especially if you are going to learn on the road.
To get an idea of how much of a blip you may need try blipping the throttle on down change while coasting without using the brakes. Start practicing this lower down the rev range so there is less difference in engine speed to match.
Then you could practice blipping the throttle with your foot on the brake while stationary. Eventually you need to combine these. If you do it all the time it will come 2nd nature but it may take a while. Just beware that if you are doing it around town with minimal breaking you may speed up as you engage the lower gear from slightly over revving and the momentum of the engine.
Leaping straight to heel'n'toe is a big jump especially if you are going to learn on the road.
To get an idea of how much of a blip you may need try blipping the throttle on down change while coasting without using the brakes. Start practicing this lower down the rev range so there is less difference in engine speed to match.
Then you could practice blipping the throttle with your foot on the brake while stationary. Eventually you need to combine these. If you do it all the time it will come 2nd nature but it may take a while. Just beware that if you are doing it around town with minimal breaking you may speed up as you engage the lower gear from slightly over revving and the momentum of the engine.
If you're on the tall side then you may need a steering wheel spacer so your knees fit under it.
I use the 'roll the top of your foot onto the throttle' style too.
Its easier on 06> S2s but in my S1 I tend to angle my right knee slightly left to make things easier.
Just takes practise, start off slowly with light pressure on the pedals and then go faster/increase brake pedal pressure as you get better.
Heres Senna doing it(check out the loafers and white socks!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU
I use the 'roll the top of your foot onto the throttle' style too.
Its easier on 06> S2s but in my S1 I tend to angle my right knee slightly left to make things easier.
Just takes practise, start off slowly with light pressure on the pedals and then go faster/increase brake pedal pressure as you get better.
Heres Senna doing it(check out the loafers and white socks!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU
Don't do it with wet soles on your shoes into a hairpin whilst chasing a mate in a Ferrari 599 GTO down a mountain pass. The oncoming granite wall and lack of contact with the brake raises the heart-rate more than is pleasurable.
More sensibly I don't think that many folk actually use the heel. I certainly use the ball and outer edge. If you look at some early cars (there's a great photo of the layout of a Fiat Uno Turbo in Frere's Sportscar and Competition Driving) the accelerator is shaped to make heel and toe easier.
My Elise SC has an OK layout for heel and toe. In my Forester you can do it all day long in muddy wellies.
When you get it you'll end up doing it for all down changes - it just becomes natural. In the meantime practice on an empty road.
More sensibly I don't think that many folk actually use the heel. I certainly use the ball and outer edge. If you look at some early cars (there's a great photo of the layout of a Fiat Uno Turbo in Frere's Sportscar and Competition Driving) the accelerator is shaped to make heel and toe easier.
My Elise SC has an OK layout for heel and toe. In my Forester you can do it all day long in muddy wellies.
When you get it you'll end up doing it for all down changes - it just becomes natural. In the meantime practice on an empty road.
Great thanks for the replies... seems (after a lot of practising on the wall) that I actually always keep my heel on the floor and simply rotate my foot to the brake / throttle as required, ziss could explain why as in the video's the foot is very clearly on the brake pedal and not resting on the floor.... some more practising required me thinks....
8.
8.
I've always thought Lotus had very well positioned pedals, perhaps a touch abrasive on the edges of soles!
In terms of practice I recommend:
Step.1. - Forget about the brake pedal!
Get used to blipping the throttle while shifting to a lower gear, your aiming to perfectly judge the moment and the correct amount of throttle travel to use, i.e. to match the increase in engine speed (RPM).
Step.2. - Start gently using the brake pedal.
Begin gently adding the brake pedal to the process using a method that your comfortable with, blip the throttle as per what you learnt in step.1.
Step.3. - Start being firmer with the brake pedal.
As the pressure and travel of the brake pedal changes so to will the angle of the foot required for the process.
Practice, practice, practice, but do it somewhere safe and you will soon be using it in every vehicle with a manual gearbox.
WARNING:
Pretty much every passenger journey from this point onwards will be slightly annoying as you feel the driver 'jerk' every single down-shift!
In terms of practice I recommend:
Step.1. - Forget about the brake pedal!
Get used to blipping the throttle while shifting to a lower gear, your aiming to perfectly judge the moment and the correct amount of throttle travel to use, i.e. to match the increase in engine speed (RPM).
Step.2. - Start gently using the brake pedal.
Begin gently adding the brake pedal to the process using a method that your comfortable with, blip the throttle as per what you learnt in step.1.
Step.3. - Start being firmer with the brake pedal.
As the pressure and travel of the brake pedal changes so to will the angle of the foot required for the process.
Practice, practice, practice, but do it somewhere safe and you will soon be using it in every vehicle with a manual gearbox.
WARNING:
Pretty much every passenger journey from this point onwards will be slightly annoying as you feel the driver 'jerk' every single down-shift!
CocoUK said:
WARNING:
Pretty much every passenger journey from this point onwards will be slightly annoying as you feel the driver 'jerk' every single down-shift!
Related, I had a passenger in the Exige this week (new to the Lotus fold, with a recent Elise S1 puchase), ask me if my car had an auto downshift blip feature, before I directed him to watch the feet!Pretty much every passenger journey from this point onwards will be slightly annoying as you feel the driver 'jerk' every single down-shift!
As said above, practice makes perfect, it's still absolutely satisfying when you come down the gears whilst braking with no discernable feeling if the clutch engaging.
I think its maybe the name that confuses, I roll my foot onto the throttle for rev matching. Not sure whether 'heel and toe' is more applicable to cars with a floor mounted throttle pedal maybe? Doubt I could actually get my heel onto the Elise throttle pedal unless I didn't have any toes! 
hmmm... it is going to take some practice I think.
I notice that I don't normally brake with the ball of my foot more the right hand side to be honest.
If I brake with the ball of my foot then my foot naturally seems to rest on the accelerator pedal, so I think this may be the answer... though I may scare a few pedestrians while I'm learning how much blip to give it ! ;-)
I will try and take some video of me doing it and post it on youtube so you can all laugh at my ineptitude
:-).
I notice that I don't normally brake with the ball of my foot more the right hand side to be honest.
If I brake with the ball of my foot then my foot naturally seems to rest on the accelerator pedal, so I think this may be the answer... though I may scare a few pedestrians while I'm learning how much blip to give it ! ;-)
I will try and take some video of me doing it and post it on youtube so you can all laugh at my ineptitude
:-).
It's impossible in many standard road cars. Easiest thing in the world in a Caterham, not to easy in an Elise when braking lightly as we tend to on the road. Much easier on the track when you use more of the brake pedal travel. If it's not easy to do it's not worth forcing and it might be best to save practice for a trackday. However the whole point is to smooth downshifts to keep the car more stable under braking. If it's causing the car to be 'jerky' as some have put it then you're better off just braking hard and using the synchro.
The Pits said:
It's impossible in many standard road cars. Easiest thing in the world in a Caterham, not to easy in an Elise when braking lightly as we tend to on the road. Much easier on the track when you use more of the brake pedal travel. If it's not easy to do it's not worth forcing and it might be best to save practice for a trackday. However the whole point is to smooth downshifts to keep the car more stable under braking. If it's causing the car to be 'jerky' as some have put it then you're better off just braking hard and using the synchro.
Eh? How is impossible in many standard road cars? If you can do it, you can do it in anything manual...The main reason for doing it is to match engine speed for the next gear which in turn makes the car more stable under braking.
Lot's of good advice above, having learned to do it when I was 17 I use it in all my cars at all times, whether pressing on or driving the family
Mark B said:
Eh? How is impossible in many standard road cars? If you can do it, you can do it in anything manual...
The main reason for doing it is to match engine speed for the next gear which in turn makes the car more stable under braking.
Lot's of good advice above, having learned to do it when I was 17 I use it in all my cars at all times, whether pressing on or driving the family
Weirdly I find it much easier in my Subaru Forester than my Elise - pedal box seems to be absolutely spot on for it in that.The main reason for doing it is to match engine speed for the next gear which in turn makes the car more stable under braking.
Lot's of good advice above, having learned to do it when I was 17 I use it in all my cars at all times, whether pressing on or driving the family
Some possibly dangerous advice on this thread?
You can use the side of your foot but you need to be angling over to only hit the throttle when you intend to. If you just brake really hard does your foot catch the throttle? - that's the dangerous thing to avoid (people have crashed doing exactly that). For info the part of the foot I use is approximately the first 'stripe' of an adidas trainer...
Walshy will sort you out in March. Maybe better waiting until then rather than practicing a bad habit?
You can use the side of your foot but you need to be angling over to only hit the throttle when you intend to. If you just brake really hard does your foot catch the throttle? - that's the dangerous thing to avoid (people have crashed doing exactly that). For info the part of the foot I use is approximately the first 'stripe' of an adidas trainer...
Walshy will sort you out in March. Maybe better waiting until then rather than practicing a bad habit?
Mark B said:
If you can do it, you can do it in anything manual...
Not necessarily true. It's easy on some cars, and considerably more difficult on others. It depends a lot on the height of the pedals and how flexible your ankle is. That's why sportier cars are often designed to make it easier (shape and location of pedals, or even adjustable pedals etc).
Saying you can do it in anything manual is just balls - there will be some cars where the brake pedal is poorly positioned in relation to the accelerator.
I have no trouble at all in my Elise, haven't struggled in lots of cars, but found it physically painful in my old 206 shed. It just wasn't worth the effort - massively offset pedals, the accelerator was a lot closer to the floor than the brake pedal was, and it was also a small accelerator pedal so didn't leave much space to actually blip lower down with your heel rather than the side of your foot. You either had to be pressing the brake pretty hard, or a lot of movement was required in your right foot. It took more than a simple swivel.
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Tuesday 5th February 18:45
pthelazyjourno said:
It depends a lot on the height of the pedals and how flexible your ankle is. That's why sportier cars are often designed to make it easier (shape and location of pedals, or even adjustable pedals etc).
Saying you can do it in anything manual is just balls - there will be some cars where the brake pedal is poorly positioned in relation to the accelerator.
I have no trouble at all in my Elise, haven't struggled in lots of cars, but found it physically painful in my old 206 shed. It just wasn't worth the effort - massively offset pedals, the accelerator was a lot closer to the floor than the brake pedal was, and it was also a small accelerator pedal so didn't leave much space to actually blip lower down with your heel rather than the side of your foot. You either had to be pressing the brake pretty hard, or a lot of movement was required in your right foot. It took more than a simple swivel
In a 106 the pedals are so tight you can find yourself doing it even when you don't want to! Saying you can do it in anything manual is just balls - there will be some cars where the brake pedal is poorly positioned in relation to the accelerator.
I have no trouble at all in my Elise, haven't struggled in lots of cars, but found it physically painful in my old 206 shed. It just wasn't worth the effort - massively offset pedals, the accelerator was a lot closer to the floor than the brake pedal was, and it was also a small accelerator pedal so didn't leave much space to actually blip lower down with your heel rather than the side of your foot. You either had to be pressing the brake pretty hard, or a lot of movement was required in your right foot. It took more than a simple swivel
pthelazyjourno said:
Not necessarily true. It's easy on some cars, and considerably more difficult on others.
Saying you can do it in anything manual is just balls
Sorry, I've not driven any car that I couldn't blip the throttle whilst braking. The brake is next to the throttle so, if your foot can breach the gap, it can be done. You may not be able to use the same exact technique, but it can be done. My first car was a Beetle with bottom swivel brake and throttle pedal, I used heel and toe, the Elise I rotate the foot from ball to outside edge of foot, in my BMW I use a similar technique to the Beetle but with my foot cranked facing North West with ball of foot on pedal and heel pushed down, my wife's Polo I have my foot almost facing completely West. In my old Sylva Striker with Escort pedals, I could (but didn't) use the heel of my foot on the brake and my toe's on the throttle due to throttle arm, equally I could do it similar to the BMW.Saying you can do it in anything manual is just balls
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Tuesday 5th February 18:45
As I said, it can be done in any car assuming the pedals are close enough for your foot to breach the gap. I would be amazed if there are many vehicle where the throttle and brake are so far apart an adult foot can't breach the gap.
If your ankles aren't flexible enough to achieve the desired action, that doesn't mean it's not possible, just means you don't have the flexibility required to do it..
cre8toruk said:
hmmm... it is going to take some practice I think.
I notice that I don't normally brake with the ball of my foot more the right hand side to be honest.
If I brake with the ball of my foot then my foot naturally seems to rest on the accelerator pedal, so I think this may be the answer... though I may scare a few pedestrians while I'm learning how much blip to give it ! ;-)
I will try and take some video of me doing it and post it on youtube so you can all laugh at my ineptitude
:-).
Couple of comments here... I wouldn't be practising whilst pedestrians are about, or when braking. Having taught people in the past, try learning the necessary amount of throttle blip is required when changing from something like 5th to 4th then 4th to 3rd whilst decelerating (not braking) toward a roundabout on a dual carriageway. You are therefore not in a braking zone, surrounded by other cars, just learning the necessary blip for the car and gearbox. I notice that I don't normally brake with the ball of my foot more the right hand side to be honest.
If I brake with the ball of my foot then my foot naturally seems to rest on the accelerator pedal, so I think this may be the answer... though I may scare a few pedestrians while I'm learning how much blip to give it ! ;-)
I will try and take some video of me doing it and post it on youtube so you can all laugh at my ineptitude
:-).
Once you have this mastered, move onto the ankle twist, again not really braking but with you foot covering the brake and blipping the throttle.
Once this is done, you can start to apply more brake pressure, but do it when the roads are quiet with no pedestrians and other cars around. You'll get there, just give yourself plenty of time.
I've been doing this since the first day i drove as my car had knackered synchros and I had exposure to vintage cars which required not only heel and toe, but also double de clutch............ which is another subject all together
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