S1 or S2.. Discuss..
Discussion
Hi All..
In a bit of a quandry.. Definately want an elise, have done for a while.. but cant decide on S1/S2...
S1 is the 'original' lightweight by design philosophy, and therefore feels like the right decision for purity of design/ethos... But its old now, i know the head gasket is ropey if not already changed.. If this is done is the K series solid enough??
S2 probably looks better, and i expect is probably a better car, but heavier (slower?).. But more reliable? Less fear of big bills?
Any views??
MP
In a bit of a quandry.. Definately want an elise, have done for a while.. but cant decide on S1/S2...
S1 is the 'original' lightweight by design philosophy, and therefore feels like the right decision for purity of design/ethos... But its old now, i know the head gasket is ropey if not already changed.. If this is done is the K series solid enough??
S2 probably looks better, and i expect is probably a better car, but heavier (slower?).. But more reliable? Less fear of big bills?
Any views??
MP
Don't assume that S2 automatically means a Toyota engine - the early S2s were K-series.
Also don't assume that S1 = light and S2 = heavy; the weight increase was gradual over the years; an early S2 weighs about the same as a late S1. The only big step in weight happened when they switched to Toyota engines (an extra 60kg or something).
The K-series is generally fairly solid except for the head gasket but as the cars get newer they sorted out a variety of other niggling problems and stupid design flaws and generally improved the build quality. Newer cars are notably more waterproof. I wouldn't try to run any Elise on a shoe-string though.
As for which to get, you really need to drive as many variants as possible and decide which you like. My favourite was the K-series VVC powered S2 111S. This is complicated by the fact that very few early Elises are still completely standard.
Also don't assume that S1 = light and S2 = heavy; the weight increase was gradual over the years; an early S2 weighs about the same as a late S1. The only big step in weight happened when they switched to Toyota engines (an extra 60kg or something).
The K-series is generally fairly solid except for the head gasket but as the cars get newer they sorted out a variety of other niggling problems and stupid design flaws and generally improved the build quality. Newer cars are notably more waterproof. I wouldn't try to run any Elise on a shoe-string though.
As for which to get, you really need to drive as many variants as possible and decide which you like. My favourite was the K-series VVC powered S2 111S. This is complicated by the fact that very few early Elises are still completely standard.
Edited by kambites on Monday 23 July 09:39
As said drive as many variants as you can, really depends what your usage is, daily? weekend? track? etc etc.
Also pay careful attention to service history rather than mileage/year. A suspension or brake refresh will cost a few £££.
HGF, in my opinion is an 'internet' overly documented issue, although can be common, can be fixed properly for not a lot should it occur.
Also pay careful attention to service history rather than mileage/year. A suspension or brake refresh will cost a few £££.
HGF, in my opinion is an 'internet' overly documented issue, although can be common, can be fixed properly for not a lot should it occur.
I had the same quandry.
kambites said:
My favourite was the K-series VVC powered S2 111S. This is complicated by the fact that very few early Elises are still completely standard.
A decent S2 111S was the solution I came to. Moderately will put together, mostly waterproof, plenty quick enough...The weight has increased over the life of the Elise, but so has the power - S1 cars are not generally quicker than S2s, or at least they weren't when they left the factory. There are handling differences, down to weight to some extent but mostly down to front tyre width and suspension geometry. You can have an S2 set up to handle more like an S1 by altering the latter two (not much you can do about the former). S2 had better quality dampers, but S1 can be upgraded.
The S1 I've driven was much, much less refined than my car, but it may not have been representative.
I think the choice ultimately comes down to;
The S1 I've driven was much, much less refined than my car, but it may not have been representative.
I think the choice ultimately comes down to;
- budget
- preference for light weight
- tolerance of noise, vibration and harshness
- styling
- performance expectations
- desire (or not) to avoid Rover K-series engines
- desire to have antilock brakes (Toyota S2 - vs - Rover S2)
- desire to have unassisted brakes (Rover S2 - vs - Toyota S2)
I've had both a VX220 and a std S2 Elise, now on an S2 111s. For me the 111s is the pick of the bunch. Last of the K-series Elise's (which is the engine I prefer - lots of torque and a good top end).
The S2 111s has the short roof (a cinch to put on and take off) and has some creature comforts (leather, electric windows) but still isn't as heavy as later Elise's , I think official figure is 0-62 in 5.1 which is plenty quick enough for me.
I prefer the styling of the S2 and the ride comfort and damping is better for me. The 111s covers all the bases and if it were my money (and indeed it was) that's where I'd be putting it. I think there will always be a demand for a good S2 111s.
P.S. I never really liked my VX220, just felt a bit worse than the lotus in every department, not sure why, might have been a perception thing on my end.
The S2 111s has the short roof (a cinch to put on and take off) and has some creature comforts (leather, electric windows) but still isn't as heavy as later Elise's , I think official figure is 0-62 in 5.1 which is plenty quick enough for me.
I prefer the styling of the S2 and the ride comfort and damping is better for me. The 111s covers all the bases and if it were my money (and indeed it was) that's where I'd be putting it. I think there will always be a demand for a good S2 111s.
P.S. I never really liked my VX220, just felt a bit worse than the lotus in every department, not sure why, might have been a perception thing on my end.
Lione1 Richie said:
(leather, electric windows)
Not all of them. Mine is spartan, no leather, no air con, no electrics. I like it that way.Lione1 Richie said:
I think there will always be a demand for a good S2 111s.
Hope so. Mine may need to find a new home, as the full reality of a tiny person living in my house is starting to become very apparent....I intentionally avoided air-con; it's heavy, it breaks, and I generally have the roof off if it's warm anyway. Electric windows are a slight bonus because it makes it marginally easier to open the passenger window (which is necessary in order to remove the roof from the driver's seat); they're apparently lighter than the wind-up ones too, although I doubt the difference is big enough to matter either way. I've got half leather seats and I'd prefer it if they were cloth, really.
I'd echo the AC - I looked for one without as I'd heard they were pretty poor early on.
Also I did love the alcantara/suede seats in the type 72 I had. Although I do find the leather ones in the 111s better on a long journey. Might just be a placebo effect tho!
As i said earlier, I think the demand will always be there for a good 111s, I find the engine much more to my liking than the yota lump and it's gearbox is set up for quick 0-60 sprints whilst still whilst pulling 3K revs cruising at 70 on the m/way.
Also I did love the alcantara/suede seats in the type 72 I had. Although I do find the leather ones in the 111s better on a long journey. Might just be a placebo effect tho!
As i said earlier, I think the demand will always be there for a good 111s, I find the engine much more to my liking than the yota lump and it's gearbox is set up for quick 0-60 sprints whilst still whilst pulling 3K revs cruising at 70 on the m/way.
Yazza54 said:
There is naff all wrong with the K series engine.
This^^^ It is a total fallacy that the K series is a "weak" engine. It should be treated with a little respect during warm up and you won't have an issue with HGF. Giving it the beans from cold shows poor mechanical sympathy and will lead to HGF and no doubt another forum poster moaning about crap K series engines.It is superlightweight, has loads of torque compared to the Toyota engine and so is perfect for the Elise, especially in 111S form.
As to the original question, I would say S1 111S is the best car, but then I would be biased!
Marvindodgers said:
This^^^ It is a total fallacy that the K series is a "weak" engine. It should be treated with a little respect during warm up and you won't have an issue with HGF. Giving it the beans from cold shows poor mechanical sympathy and will lead to HGF and no doubt another forum poster moaning about crap K series engines.
It is superlightweight, has loads of torque compared to the Toyota engine and so is perfect for the Elise, especially in 111S form.
As to the original question, I would say S1 111S is the best car, but then I would be biased!
Not entirely fair - lots of people do respect the K and still have problems, there were plenty of heads with poor castings, which didn't help issues. It is superlightweight, has loads of torque compared to the Toyota engine and so is perfect for the Elise, especially in 111S form.
As to the original question, I would say S1 111S is the best car, but then I would be biased!
It's a good engine though, and I agree that it's perfect for the Elise. I added 30,000 miles to a 60,000 miles Elise, and it's still going strong. Wouldn't change it for the world.
pthelazyjourno said:
Not entirely fair - lots of people do respect the K and still have problems, there were plenty of heads with poor castings, which didn't help issues.
Mine was pampered since I've had it (can't speak for the previous owner, obviously) and it went. Doesn't really matter though; fixing it isn't much more expensive than a typical service. Marvindodgers said:
It is superlightweight, has loads of torque compared to the Toyota engine and so is perfect for the Elise, especially in 111S form.
Hmm...http://www.dyno-plot.co.uk/dyno/dynoplot/id%3D289_...
I think what you are feeling is the lower weight of the Rover engined car combined with the way that engines with a really strong top end make their own bottom end feel limp.
I love my S1, but if I was going to buy a new one I'd want to test drive them all again. So many little changes over the years, and you might find that there is a model which is just perfect for you.
If I couldn't have my car I'd be tempted to buy a Toyota 1ZZ engined Elise. I had a really nice drive in one of those, and while it wasn't the fastest Elise I've driven there was something very appealing about it.
If I couldn't have my car I'd be tempted to buy a Toyota 1ZZ engined Elise. I had a really nice drive in one of those, and while it wasn't the fastest Elise I've driven there was something very appealing about it.
otolith said:
Marvindodgers said:
It is superlightweight, has loads of torque compared to the Toyota engine and so is perfect for the Elise, especially in 111S form.
Hmm...http://www.dyno-plot.co.uk/dyno/dynoplot/id%3D289_...
I think what you are feeling is the lower weight of the Rover engined car combined with the way that engines with a really strong top end make their own bottom end feel limp.
Marvindodgers said:
This^^^ It is a total fallacy that the K series is a "weak" engine. It should be treated with a little respect during warm up and you won't have an issue with HGF. Giving it the beans from cold shows poor mechanical sympathy and will lead to HGF and no doubt another forum poster moaning about crap K series engines.
It is superlightweight, has loads of torque compared to the Toyota engine and so is perfect for the Elise, especially in 111S form.
As to the original question, I would say S1 111S is the best car, but then I would be biased!
Does yours have "special" torque then ?It is superlightweight, has loads of torque compared to the Toyota engine and so is perfect for the Elise, especially in 111S form.
As to the original question, I would say S1 111S is the best car, but then I would be biased!
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