S2 111S or standard S2?
Discussion
I want an Elise for enjoyable motoring, but also as a daily drive including a fair bit of motorway work. Am I mad to think about a 111S for longer gearing and a little more power, or is it unlikely to make a noticeable difference?
I had an MGTF with the 135hp engine (not the same as the Lotus 135 head though) and found myself wondering about the 160bhp engine in that car after a year or so.
Without the chance to drive a 'normal' S2 vs a 111S back to back, is the difference as small as the 0-60 times suggest?
I had an MGTF with the 135hp engine (not the same as the Lotus 135 head though) and found myself wondering about the 160bhp engine in that car after a year or so.
Without the chance to drive a 'normal' S2 vs a 111S back to back, is the difference as small as the 0-60 times suggest?
S1 here, but I went from 118bhp to 160bhp, and it's definitely noticeable.
It's no Ferrari, but the extra power makes third and fourth gear a lot more usable - even without the shorter gearing.
With 160bhp, there's a fair bit of oomph on country roads between 50-80mph, which is definitely lacking in lower powered Elises.
0-60 isn't really a factor - the standard Elise is quick - but the K runs out of puff pretty low down the rev range. There's nothing to be gained by revving over 5500rpm, which is a bit crap in a sportscar. 111S will easily add another 1000rpm+ on top of that, and cut several seconds off the 0-100 / 60-100 times.
Obviously the longer gearing will negate some of that, but I actually think it's a good compromise. As said - that's with an S1, but the S2 Rover cars aren't **that** much heavier, so performance characteristics are similar.
It's no Ferrari, but the extra power makes third and fourth gear a lot more usable - even without the shorter gearing.
With 160bhp, there's a fair bit of oomph on country roads between 50-80mph, which is definitely lacking in lower powered Elises.
0-60 isn't really a factor - the standard Elise is quick - but the K runs out of puff pretty low down the rev range. There's nothing to be gained by revving over 5500rpm, which is a bit crap in a sportscar. 111S will easily add another 1000rpm+ on top of that, and cut several seconds off the 0-100 / 60-100 times.
Obviously the longer gearing will negate some of that, but I actually think it's a good compromise. As said - that's with an S1, but the S2 Rover cars aren't **that** much heavier, so performance characteristics are similar.
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Thursday 29th March 00:46
AllNines said:
I think that's doing a dis-service to the 120bhp version, to be honest. 50-80 on country roads? All the fun in an Elise is within the speed limit, that's the whole point of it, surely?
Do your best to try both versions before forming any opinions (either your own or those of others).
As I said - 0-60 the Elise is quick. Do your best to try both versions before forming any opinions (either your own or those of others).
4th gear is all but useless from an acceleration standpoint though IMO, and it's in the higher gears you'll really notice the additional power.
Perhaps you never go above 50mph, and fair play to you if so. I very very rarely go above 80mph in mine, which I know full well is considerably slower than lots of people - everybody drives differently.
The OP asked for opinions - I still think the 111S is more of a giggle on the road, without being unusable. Granted, most of the time you will be driving in 2nd, 3rd gear, but when there's a longer straight, or a quicker corner, it's nice to be able to use 4th as well without dropping completely out of the power.
If nothing else, the revvier engine suits the Elise more, without losing any of the character. That was the factor I was more interested in - the K is so much nicer when it's comfortably able to rev to 7000rpm.
As you say though - he's going to have to drive both to see which he prefers.
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Thursday 29th March 09:46
We still have 60mph limits on back roads round my way 
I find no point in going anywhere near 70, let alone 80 on single carriageways, so any oomph missing in a standard S2 isn't a problem. Gearing is well-suited to the lanes, too.
We're heading away from the OP's requirements, though, as he is more interested in what each is like on the motorway. In that sense, I'd say that the close ratios in my car are not ideal, as it does scream a bit at cruising speed (I don't find there is any power/torque lacking, however). I'd be interested to find out whether the 160 version is any better, as that is the only downside to my car. Is the 5th gear ratio different?
I find no point in going anywhere near 70, let alone 80 on single carriageways, so any oomph missing in a standard S2 isn't a problem. Gearing is well-suited to the lanes, too.
We're heading away from the OP's requirements, though, as he is more interested in what each is like on the motorway. In that sense, I'd say that the close ratios in my car are not ideal, as it does scream a bit at cruising speed (I don't find there is any power/torque lacking, however). I'd be interested to find out whether the 160 version is any better, as that is the only downside to my car. Is the 5th gear ratio different?
Thanks to both of you, for a balanced discussion. It doesn't sound like I'd be disappointed with either car.
The S2 111S has slightly longer gearing, so it pulls about 300rpm less at 70mph. I guess that will start to flatten some of the extra power (or put it in a lower gear some of the time).
It seems the Elise is about 'character' - I had a Jag XKR, and 370bhp was frankly excessive, it was impossible to keep the throttle pinned for very long before the speed became too much for the conditions on anything but motorways (and where's the fun there?).
I'll see if I can drive both while I wait for the right car & price to come along.
The S2 111S has slightly longer gearing, so it pulls about 300rpm less at 70mph. I guess that will start to flatten some of the extra power (or put it in a lower gear some of the time).
It seems the Elise is about 'character' - I had a Jag XKR, and 370bhp was frankly excessive, it was impossible to keep the throttle pinned for very long before the speed became too much for the conditions on anything but motorways (and where's the fun there?).
I'll see if I can drive both while I wait for the right car & price to come along.
AllNines said:
We still have 60mph limits on back roads round my way
I find no point in going anywhere near 70, let alone 80 on single carriageways, so any oomph missing in a standard S2 isn't a problem. Gearing is well-suited to the lanes, too.
We're heading away from the OP's requirements, though, as he is more interested in what each is like on the motorway. In that sense, I'd say that the close ratios in my car are not ideal, as it does scream a bit at cruising speed (I don't find there is any power/torque lacking, however). I'd be interested to find out whether the 160 version is any better, as that is the only downside to my car. Is the 5th gear ratio different?
As I say, people drive differently.I find no point in going anywhere near 70, let alone 80 on single carriageways, so any oomph missing in a standard S2 isn't a problem. Gearing is well-suited to the lanes, too.
We're heading away from the OP's requirements, though, as he is more interested in what each is like on the motorway. In that sense, I'd say that the close ratios in my car are not ideal, as it does scream a bit at cruising speed (I don't find there is any power/torque lacking, however). I'd be interested to find out whether the 160 version is any better, as that is the only downside to my car. Is the 5th gear ratio different?
Hence the reason 220bhp Duratec cars exist, 300bhp Audi Elises, 400bhp charge-cooled monsters etc - I personally don't see any point in those for the road either, but many people do. Or Frank with his bats
t mental 700bhp Exige... I believe 5th gear is slightly taller on the S2 111S. I think 1st and 2nd are the same (2nd may even be a bit lower in the 111S, I know the gears are spaced further apart?), with 3rd, 4th and 5th all closer together in the standard S2 as far as I'm aware, although happy to be corrected.
The gearing certainly isn't the issue on motorways - it's the wind, tyre and all the other associated noises that's the killer. Not sure what it is at 70mph with the standard gearbox - somewhere around 3000rpm? It's no lazy V8, but it's not too bad.
Both options are excellent little cars.
I went for the S simply because I was stepping out of a fairly powerful turbo car, and found the standard S2 a little bit lacking.
If I'd driven nothing but a lower powered S2, I probably have been perfectly happy with it.
The engine is not the important bit of an Elise....
I went for the S simply because I was stepping out of a fairly powerful turbo car, and found the standard S2 a little bit lacking.
If I'd driven nothing but a lower powered S2, I probably have been perfectly happy with it.
The engine is not the important bit of an Elise....
Turbocharger said:
Thanks to both of you, for a balanced discussion. It doesn't sound like I'd be disappointed with either car.
The S2 111S has slightly longer gearing, so it pulls about 300rpm less at 70mph. I guess that will start to flatten some of the extra power (or put it in a lower gear some of the time).
It seems the Elise is about 'character' - I had a Jag XKR, and 370bhp was frankly excessive, it was impossible to keep the throttle pinned for very long before the speed became too much for the conditions on anything but motorways (and where's the fun there?).
I'll see if I can drive both while I wait for the right car & price to come along.
Definitely. As above, you can have plenty of fun at legal speeds. I wasn't disappointed with my car when it had 118bhp, don't get me wrong, and it's not like it would suddenly disappear over the horizon in seconds or anything. I just wanted it to rev harder and longer (without going Toyota power), it wasn't specifically about speed. The S2 111S has slightly longer gearing, so it pulls about 300rpm less at 70mph. I guess that will start to flatten some of the extra power (or put it in a lower gear some of the time).
It seems the Elise is about 'character' - I had a Jag XKR, and 370bhp was frankly excessive, it was impossible to keep the throttle pinned for very long before the speed became too much for the conditions on anything but motorways (and where's the fun there?).
I'll see if I can drive both while I wait for the right car & price to come along.
Mr E said:
Both options are excellent little cars.
I went for the S simply because I was stepping out of a fairly powerful turbo car, and found the standard S2 a little bit lacking.
The 'S' gave you electric windows and some leather. It was the '111' bit that gave the extra horses. End of geekery...I went for the S simply because I was stepping out of a fairly powerful turbo car, and found the standard S2 a little bit lacking.
AllNines said:
Mr E said:
Both options are excellent little cars.
I went for the S simply because I was stepping out of a fairly powerful turbo car, and found the standard S2 a little bit lacking.
The 'S' gave you electric windows and some leather. It was the '111' bit that gave the extra horses. End of geekery...I went for the S simply because I was stepping out of a fairly powerful turbo car, and found the standard S2 a little bit lacking.
Mr E said:
stepping out of a fairly powerful turbo car..The engine is not the important bit of an Elise....
^ This, many stock Loti need to be worked and revved pretty hard to feel comparable to many of today's turbos, but as you say, engine is not the important bit, to me it's about the overall package/ownership/experience/loyalty, and is pretty hard to beat in my (slightly biased) opinion.AllNines said:
But your initial comment was based on 'back roads' at stupid speeds. I still don't think that the 120bhp car is lacking in this regard, if that's how you want to drive.
There are plenty of back roads with no junctions or openings, which have long enough straights to safely reach speeds of 60-70mph IMO, and while you clearly think that's a 'stupid speed', we evidently disagree. Perhaps 80mph is irresponsible, but if the road is clear and there are no obstructions, I see no moral issues. Whether it's legal, or whether you'd want to is a whole other ball game, but I honestly believe the Elise is better suited to 150-170bhp. Quite a few people (customers and critics) hold both the original S1 111S and the S2 111S up as the ultimate all-round models in the Elise range. (I don't actually own a 111S BTW, so there's no bias).
Obviously we'll have to agree to disagree - as said, I personally think the standard car runs out of puff at 50mph, hence why I had mine breathed on. You evidently think it's fine, hence you having (I presume) a standard car. Neither of us is going to convince the other, otherwise you'd be upgrading and I'd be swapping the valves, cams and head back to standard!
Digressing from the opening post slightly, but good debate.
The subject of speed was raise once at a safety talk at one of our car gatherings, and the sound advice from the chief police driver was, there are plenty of NSL twisty B roads where you'd struggle to maintain 60, so go and find them and have fun.
My own opinion is 120bhp is absolutely fine to have fun, keep up with other Loti, and more than enough umph for safe overtakes when needed, albeit you have to work the gears, all part of the fun.
The subject of speed was raise once at a safety talk at one of our car gatherings, and the sound advice from the chief police driver was, there are plenty of NSL twisty B roads where you'd struggle to maintain 60, so go and find them and have fun.
My own opinion is 120bhp is absolutely fine to have fun, keep up with other Loti, and more than enough umph for safe overtakes when needed, albeit you have to work the gears, all part of the fun.
Edited by SeanyD on Thursday 29th March 14:07
SeanyD said:
Digressing from the opening post slightly, but good debate.
The subject of speed was raise once at a safety talk at one of our car gatherings, and the sound advice from the chief police driver was, there are plenty of NSL twisty B roads where you'd struggle to maintain 60, so go and find them and have fun.
My own opinion is 120bhp is absolutely fine to have fun, keep up with other Loti, and more than enough umph for safe overtakes when needed, albeit you have to work the gears, all part of the fun.
Oh definitely, I couldn't and wouldn't choose to try and maintain 60mph - you'd have to drive bloody quickly round the Cat & Fiddle (excluding the big straights) for instance if you wanted to average 50mph.The subject of speed was raise once at a safety talk at one of our car gatherings, and the sound advice from the chief police driver was, there are plenty of NSL twisty B roads where you'd struggle to maintain 60, so go and find them and have fun.
My own opinion is 120bhp is absolutely fine to have fun, keep up with other Loti, and more than enough umph for safe overtakes when needed, albeit you have to work the gears, all part of the fun.
Edited by SeanyD on Thursday 29th March 14:07
If you accelerate to 7000rpm in the first three gears, however, you'd be comfortably above 60mph. Out of interest, do you genuinely never use all of third gear with your foot down?
That's the thing, if you do, I'm not going any faster - I just get there a second or two more quickly, which is the bit I enjoy.
But yes, again, to reiterate, I was never disappointed with my standard car. It was fun. It was a great laugh. And I could understand that many people wouldn't choose to spend thousands upgrading.
It's a different kettle of fish when you're actually trying to choose between two models though.
If you take money out of the equation, and all else remains the same, why wouldn't you want the car that revs higher? There's no drop in torque as far as I'm aware? It's not like choosing between the Toyota and K, as it's the same basic engine, so character doesn't really change. It's not like it's ballistic 0-100 in 8 seconds style performance that you can never use, it doesn't really change the top speed much, it doesn't result in manic wheelspin in any of the gears, it just lops a couple of seconds off the 0-100 time and revs more smoothly higher up.
And again, sorry for keeping it off topic! Just interested.
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Thursday 29th March 14:39
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