Europa, Porker or BMW?
Discussion
Hi folks. I have my eyes set on a 2008 Europa S (upgraded to an SE) with 13000 klms on the clock and in mint condition. The price is also a bargain at 25K (euros, and this could go down as far as 22-23K). It is a pretty little thing, however for some reason it has not been so well received by the public. She would be the next in a series of great machinery such as M3, Tuscan, S2000, RX-8 (not so great), 996 etc. The obvious alternative is a Cayman S now selling at under 30K euros here or even a Z4 M coupe at similar price range. It will be my only car so it will serve as a daily drive. At 6ft 3, I find that I fit OK in the seat. What say you?
I dont know that the Europa and th Cayman / BMW are alternatives other than maybe in a price sense. The BMW and Cayman are mass production cars put together better than any Lotus and far more useable day to day. The Lotus is more of an enthusiasts car. Its a personal choice as to which one floats your boat.
It was not well recieved because it was not well marketed, launched with the wrong spec, and had poor engine mapping (since fixed with a lotus remap) + it was never going to be a relaxed coupe
On the + side, it's well rated as a drivers car, is pretty quick with the lotus remap, which i expect most cars have had done by now, and i think is quite a good looking car
Your best bet is to drive one and see if you like it
On the + side, it's well rated as a drivers car, is pretty quick with the lotus remap, which i expect most cars have had done by now, and i think is quite a good looking car
Your best bet is to drive one and see if you like it
Thanks Peter that is useful data-the car in question has the whole upgrade kit, so good news there. One minus down then.
Bords Eye, I think the 3 cars are comparable. For a start the Europa aimed to compete in Cayman's category, the fact that it failed to do so is a different story. The Z4 M coupe is a direct competitor of the Cayman, so here is the first link. Secondly, all 3 cars started their lives as convertibles, roadsters, the Boxster the Z4 and the Elise (chassis) and then morphed into the coupes I am mentioning. Thirdly they are all powerful RWD cars with identical performance and bhp/kg. Fourth, they are meant to be GTs. They are all 2-seaters. The Cayman and the Europa are mid-engined, a rarity in itself. I think we cannot simply assume that if you want a Lotus (or any other specialised marquee), nothing compares to it. I would compare an Elise to an S2000 for example. At the same time to state that by comparison the Z4 M and the Cayman are mass production and not enthusiasts cars is misleading and somehow does not do justice to 2 cars that are great in their own way. At 4 years of production and 500 cars per year I can think of very few cars that are not mass production compared to the Europa.
Any more thoughts pertaining to comparing the 3 cars but also to the Europa in particular are very welcome.
Bords Eye, I think the 3 cars are comparable. For a start the Europa aimed to compete in Cayman's category, the fact that it failed to do so is a different story. The Z4 M coupe is a direct competitor of the Cayman, so here is the first link. Secondly, all 3 cars started their lives as convertibles, roadsters, the Boxster the Z4 and the Elise (chassis) and then morphed into the coupes I am mentioning. Thirdly they are all powerful RWD cars with identical performance and bhp/kg. Fourth, they are meant to be GTs. They are all 2-seaters. The Cayman and the Europa are mid-engined, a rarity in itself. I think we cannot simply assume that if you want a Lotus (or any other specialised marquee), nothing compares to it. I would compare an Elise to an S2000 for example. At the same time to state that by comparison the Z4 M and the Cayman are mass production and not enthusiasts cars is misleading and somehow does not do justice to 2 cars that are great in their own way. At 4 years of production and 500 cars per year I can think of very few cars that are not mass production compared to the Europa.
Any more thoughts pertaining to comparing the 3 cars but also to the Europa in particular are very welcome.
Hi
I have a Europa, have had it for 3 years and use it every day. It has done European trips as well as a few track days. I get a lift to work in a Caymann sometimes and it is pretty different. Yes performance on the road is similar (as my friend and I can testify
. On the track the Europa is so much more focused it will eat the Caymann for breakfast. In comparison the Porsche feels like an arm chair on wheels. The suspension may have two setups but for English roads it is either too soft and rolly or too stiff and harsh.
If you are a motoring enthusiast then the Lotus has a lot going for it, if you want a well put together piece of German engineering then go for the Porsche.
Either way you will have a great car that most of the public would give their right arms for. Nice decision to have to make.
I can't really comment on the BMW other than the tag of 'widow maker' has to have come from somewhere...
cheers
C43
I have a Europa, have had it for 3 years and use it every day. It has done European trips as well as a few track days. I get a lift to work in a Caymann sometimes and it is pretty different. Yes performance on the road is similar (as my friend and I can testify
. On the track the Europa is so much more focused it will eat the Caymann for breakfast. In comparison the Porsche feels like an arm chair on wheels. The suspension may have two setups but for English roads it is either too soft and rolly or too stiff and harsh. If you are a motoring enthusiast then the Lotus has a lot going for it, if you want a well put together piece of German engineering then go for the Porsche.
Either way you will have a great car that most of the public would give their right arms for. Nice decision to have to make.
I can't really comment on the BMW other than the tag of 'widow maker' has to have come from somewhere...
cheers
C43
I had a Boxster S for about 3 years and have had a Europa S 225 for the past 2 1/2.
When I first had my Boxster it was my only car so was a daily driver in all conditions. It did the job well and having two boots meant it could be reasonably practical when required. Nice drive, very refined and lovely sounds from the flat 6. It initially felt very special being my first Porsche but I quickly got used to it, especially when I realised that there were loads of them on the roads. My issues with the Boxster were that it was very thirsty on short hops, main dealer servicing and Porsche extended warranty were very expensive and restrictive and I dare not own it without the warranty given the costs of replacement parts/ OPC labour and potential for well known issues. Add that to quite heavy depreciation even though I bought privately at a good price due to a flooded used market, and the Boxster was an expensive car to own and run. Was well worth it at the time to have fulfilled my ambition of owning a Porsche though. The plan was to go to a 911 C2 next but after Boxster ownership and falling out with the dealers over poor service I just wasnt that bothered about owning one as I once was.
The Europa is very different, I bought the car without too much thought, thinking if I didnt like It I would sell it on quick. I had sold the Porsche and wanted something special but still useable, with sensible running costs and without adding too much more money than I had from the Porsche sale. The first year I had it the Europa was a daily driver. Its fine all year around only suffering with frozen door locks in extreme weather which will stop you from being able to push them in. It can deal with anything the Porsche can and also has some luggage space. Getting in and out is not so easy as the Porsche but much improved over Exige/Elise/VX. There is plenty of room for a tall driver, only issue with the cabin is that the driver and passenger sit close togeather so its not so good with two larger people in it. The performance is far more hardcore than the Porsche, its harder on the suspension, less comfortable and the unassisted steering heavier at low speed as well as frisky in the hands when you get a hussle on. Its more involving than the Porsche, more sportscar than GT in comparison. The 225 mapped engine really gives a great surge of acceleration on the boost and is a very different delivery to the Porsche. A four pot is never going to sound as good as a flat six but the whoosh of the turbo goes some way into making it interesting. The build quality is much better than you would expect, mine seems really well made, even the interior, I don't know if they are all like this but mine was a press car for the relaunch of the 225 with the interior lux pack after the original more basic 200 flopped. It wins on costs as being a VX engine there is little to go wrong and if it does its VX money to sort and any mechanic can work on it. The rest of the car is basic stuff which again any mechanic can work on and the engine can be modded for crazy power if you want to go down that route as many of the VX220 lot have. Chassis wise there are all the usual Elise/Exige/VX mods and high quality dampers etc available if you want to make it more track biased or even relax it a bit more. Mines been totally reliable in two and a half years I have owned it although it does very few miles these days, its usually tucked up under a cover in the garage as I have an extra vehicle now which I tend to use everyday as I dont care where I park it and can fit kids, bikes etc in. All I have done with my Europa is replace oil and filters a few times, brake pad replacement and have a new cam belt kit to fit sometime soon which is straight forward being a VX220 turbo engine mounted pretty much the same. It uses far less fuel than the Porsche yet is as quick, is super rare so turns heads and actually seems to be appreciating in value. As I'm not doing many miles in it I keep thinking of selling it on but while I don't need to release the money and the cost of ownership is minimal It sits in my garage and gets a run out in only nice conditions to put a smile on my face or in emergencies when one of our other cars is out of action.
When I first had my Boxster it was my only car so was a daily driver in all conditions. It did the job well and having two boots meant it could be reasonably practical when required. Nice drive, very refined and lovely sounds from the flat 6. It initially felt very special being my first Porsche but I quickly got used to it, especially when I realised that there were loads of them on the roads. My issues with the Boxster were that it was very thirsty on short hops, main dealer servicing and Porsche extended warranty were very expensive and restrictive and I dare not own it without the warranty given the costs of replacement parts/ OPC labour and potential for well known issues. Add that to quite heavy depreciation even though I bought privately at a good price due to a flooded used market, and the Boxster was an expensive car to own and run. Was well worth it at the time to have fulfilled my ambition of owning a Porsche though. The plan was to go to a 911 C2 next but after Boxster ownership and falling out with the dealers over poor service I just wasnt that bothered about owning one as I once was.
The Europa is very different, I bought the car without too much thought, thinking if I didnt like It I would sell it on quick. I had sold the Porsche and wanted something special but still useable, with sensible running costs and without adding too much more money than I had from the Porsche sale. The first year I had it the Europa was a daily driver. Its fine all year around only suffering with frozen door locks in extreme weather which will stop you from being able to push them in. It can deal with anything the Porsche can and also has some luggage space. Getting in and out is not so easy as the Porsche but much improved over Exige/Elise/VX. There is plenty of room for a tall driver, only issue with the cabin is that the driver and passenger sit close togeather so its not so good with two larger people in it. The performance is far more hardcore than the Porsche, its harder on the suspension, less comfortable and the unassisted steering heavier at low speed as well as frisky in the hands when you get a hussle on. Its more involving than the Porsche, more sportscar than GT in comparison. The 225 mapped engine really gives a great surge of acceleration on the boost and is a very different delivery to the Porsche. A four pot is never going to sound as good as a flat six but the whoosh of the turbo goes some way into making it interesting. The build quality is much better than you would expect, mine seems really well made, even the interior, I don't know if they are all like this but mine was a press car for the relaunch of the 225 with the interior lux pack after the original more basic 200 flopped. It wins on costs as being a VX engine there is little to go wrong and if it does its VX money to sort and any mechanic can work on it. The rest of the car is basic stuff which again any mechanic can work on and the engine can be modded for crazy power if you want to go down that route as many of the VX220 lot have. Chassis wise there are all the usual Elise/Exige/VX mods and high quality dampers etc available if you want to make it more track biased or even relax it a bit more. Mines been totally reliable in two and a half years I have owned it although it does very few miles these days, its usually tucked up under a cover in the garage as I have an extra vehicle now which I tend to use everyday as I dont care where I park it and can fit kids, bikes etc in. All I have done with my Europa is replace oil and filters a few times, brake pad replacement and have a new cam belt kit to fit sometime soon which is straight forward being a VX220 turbo engine mounted pretty much the same. It uses far less fuel than the Porsche yet is as quick, is super rare so turns heads and actually seems to be appreciating in value. As I'm not doing many miles in it I keep thinking of selling it on but while I don't need to release the money and the cost of ownership is minimal It sits in my garage and gets a run out in only nice conditions to put a smile on my face or in emergencies when one of our other cars is out of action.
Edited by Tucker1 on Tuesday 20th December 01:20
Edited by Tucker1 on Tuesday 20th December 01:32
Edited by Tucker1 on Tuesday 20th December 16:50
Folks, this is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for and knew I could get it on this forum, (just like I was getting at the TVR forum several years ago). You can't get this data anywhere on the internet. Your time and care in responding is deeply appreciated, has given me food for thought and moved the Z4 M, as I suspected, further out. I will touch base when I have more thoughts or a decision, but for now, once again, sincere thanks.
Proud owner of a 2007 Europa S (upgraded to SE) with 13000 kilometres on the clock and perfect service history. Checked out fine at the dealer and was purchased at a phenomenally low price, which I suspect will go up in the near future. About 50 kilometres on: The car is planted on the road even though it does not feel as fast as I expected (though the handling may partly account for that). I was a bit surprised to find that understeer comes first, though traction is impeccable-it will carry twice as much speed as my previous 996 and current 330i do before oversteer appears. The car is begging to visit the track but this will be a challenge in Greece. I have not pushed the brakes hard yet but it seems that it will forgive poor judgement if you do so mid-corner. In faster corners mid-engine layout means the tyres give up before the chassis does, gradually opening wide in the most predictable manner. I suspect this will not be the case with oversteer in tighter spots and I will need to stay on the ball. Does not like bumps at all and some noise will be heard all the time from some place (construction quality, let’s say, is not German), May be used as a daily driver but then again I have used a Tuscan as a daily driver and should be fine. Only problems so far, the temperamental cobra alarm, the missing navi disc and the outrageous quoted price for tyres (they are not worn out but they have never been changed) at 1600 euros + VAT (!!!). Do I have to purchase them from Lotus?? Getting in and out is slightly challenging and shoes need to be carefully selected. Overall, it drives like all cars should drive-engaging, light, nimble, spirited engine, nicely set up and straight forward in terms of engineering since it has an opel engine. More anon and thanks for the great advice!
Good to hear you like it.
I am looking at a few options to replace my S2000 in the next few months, Europa S and Cayman being 2, Noble M12, Tamora, being a couple of other.
Interesting what you say about "bumps" - does it feel unsettled on bumpy roads (I will be using mine in the Scottish Highlands for fun mostly), or is it just a harshish and/or creaky ride you mean?
I am looking at a few options to replace my S2000 in the next few months, Europa S and Cayman being 2, Noble M12, Tamora, being a couple of other.
Interesting what you say about "bumps" - does it feel unsettled on bumpy roads (I will be using mine in the Scottish Highlands for fun mostly), or is it just a harshish and/or creaky ride you mean?
Hi there-no it does not feel unsettled, just a rough ride. This is the best handling car I ever had and I had a few. The S2000 is a very decent, honest car but several categories below the cars you are considering...Though I am very happy with my Europa so far, I think the M12 prospect is even more exciting. The TVR will trouble you in many ways and I would keep away, unless you have time, patience and money to spare. The Cayman is a fantastic car, don't let anyone convince you otherwise. I also think it would be the smoothest transition from the S2000. Just my 2 cents having owned or driven most of the cars you mention. Great dillema to have, feel free to ask for any more information about any of the cars you mentions, except the M12, which I know very little about, except that it run circles around my Tuscan in track days.
I've had 2 S2000s over the last 10 years, but (not entirely by design 
) I now need a replacement, and have a chance to go for something different.
As you say, the Cayman is the obvious choice, but is a bit too obvious - it won't be an everyday car I need, but something a little unusual and as much fun.
I am starting to get the impression that the "quirks" of the Tamora may be sufficient to outweigh the speed benefits (TBH I don't need anything that quick - great B road handling with the ability to cruise not too uncomfortably from time to time is what I am after).
Absence of luggage space is an issue with the Noble.
) I now need a replacement, and have a chance to go for something different.As you say, the Cayman is the obvious choice, but is a bit too obvious - it won't be an everyday car I need, but something a little unusual and as much fun.
I am starting to get the impression that the "quirks" of the Tamora may be sufficient to outweigh the speed benefits (TBH I don't need anything that quick - great B road handling with the ability to cruise not too uncomfortably from time to time is what I am after).
Absence of luggage space is an issue with the Noble.
I am reading very little in your post that does not lead to the obvious as you deducted yourself...sometimes things are obvious for a reason...I resisted the "obvious" 911 for over a decade, until I got one and realised what the fuss was about. The cayman is great and does everything you need, especially since I don't hear intentions of track days (which is the only thing the other machinery is better at)...they are very affordable now too! Europa not the best GT...I just came back from a short drive on the motorway. It requires constant attention. TVR is similar in that respect also.
The Cayman S still looks c £5k more than an equivalent Europa S, which would stretch my budget a bit.
They are also very common in my neck of the woods (I don't want to look like an accountant .
I'll certainly try the Cayman, but will unfortunately have to travel a long way to find a Europa even just to look at in detail.
They are also very common in my neck of the woods (I don't want to look like an accountant
.I'll certainly try the Cayman, but will unfortunately have to travel a long way to find a Europa even just to look at in detail.
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