Coolant levels - K-Series S1
Discussion
I'm probably being paranoid, but I've been reading a little bit about K-Series Elise's in an attempt to educate myself as I've never been much of a mechanical guy - however this has brought some concerns and wanted to ask some advice.
Over the past 4.5k miles I've needed to top up the coolant twice in my '96 S1 as it had fallen from Max to Min. Since the last top up (c.500 miles) it's been pretty static but I have a concern that this may suggest a head gasket failure. The car can also runs to over 100/110 degrees in really heavy traffic - until now I assumed that was normal or 2 small individual issues.
...However the car hasn't used any oil over this period and there is no oil in the coolant tank nor any mayonnaise in the coolant tank/ on the oil cap.
Paranoia or legit concerns...?
Over the past 4.5k miles I've needed to top up the coolant twice in my '96 S1 as it had fallen from Max to Min. Since the last top up (c.500 miles) it's been pretty static but I have a concern that this may suggest a head gasket failure. The car can also runs to over 100/110 degrees in really heavy traffic - until now I assumed that was normal or 2 small individual issues.
...However the car hasn't used any oil over this period and there is no oil in the coolant tank nor any mayonnaise in the coolant tank/ on the oil cap.
Paranoia or legit concerns...?
Paranoia!
A lot of S1 Elises, including the two I have owned, blow out coolant until they reach the minimum level. I don't know why, but they just seem to find the correct level there, perhaps the header tank is placed at the wrong height in relation to the engine?
Anyway, so long as it stays at that level it'll be fine (actually my S1 111S used to sit about 1cm below min).
A lot of S1 Elises, including the two I have owned, blow out coolant until they reach the minimum level. I don't know why, but they just seem to find the correct level there, perhaps the header tank is placed at the wrong height in relation to the engine?
Anyway, so long as it stays at that level it'll be fine (actually my S1 111S used to sit about 1cm below min).
Sounds normal to me. As said above they just blow out excess coolant - it'll have a level its happy at and will chuck anything else out and then remain stable. The important thing is that it remains stable once its settled. Have a peek in the header tank to see if there's any milky/oil deposits, also check the oil for mayonaisse like streaking. If you see those you have HGF. You could also take the car to any garage and have a 'sniffer' test done as sometimes the gasket goes but takes a while before you get the more obvious symptoms.
Also worth remembering that on no two cars does the level at which the coolant settles seem to be the same!
The caps on the header tank are prone to cracking and cheaply available from pretty well any moor factor or Halfords. Worth replacing if in doubt.
Don't get too paranoid about the K - if/when the gasket goes get someone that knows what they're doing (ask on here or Seloc if/when it goes) to fix and it should then be bullet proof. Also, as the head is off then its a good excuse to get some work done to the head for a bit more go
I had all the work planned for mine when it went but the damn thing just wouldn't (37k of hard use in my hands and 39k before that) - worth remembering that 160/170bhp can be had very reliably - anything more and they start to demand a fair bit of TLC.
Don't get hung up on the K - the Elise Trophy has shown them to be pretty tough engines - I can think of one with 130k miles on the clock which includes umpteen track days and Sprints plus two seasons of racing. Another completed 2 24 hour races this year and within a fortnight of one of those races did a 1,000km with nothing more than a change of oil/filters and brake pads. Great little engines that has received poor press and often its known weakness is poorly repaired. Get things done properly by people that have taken the time to understand these engines and you'll have a cracker.
Also worth remembering that on no two cars does the level at which the coolant settles seem to be the same!
The caps on the header tank are prone to cracking and cheaply available from pretty well any moor factor or Halfords. Worth replacing if in doubt.
Don't get too paranoid about the K - if/when the gasket goes get someone that knows what they're doing (ask on here or Seloc if/when it goes) to fix and it should then be bullet proof. Also, as the head is off then its a good excuse to get some work done to the head for a bit more go
I had all the work planned for mine when it went but the damn thing just wouldn't (37k of hard use in my hands and 39k before that) - worth remembering that 160/170bhp can be had very reliably - anything more and they start to demand a fair bit of TLC. Don't get hung up on the K - the Elise Trophy has shown them to be pretty tough engines - I can think of one with 130k miles on the clock which includes umpteen track days and Sprints plus two seasons of racing. Another completed 2 24 hour races this year and within a fortnight of one of those races did a 1,000km with nothing more than a change of oil/filters and brake pads. Great little engines that has received poor press and often its known weakness is poorly repaired. Get things done properly by people that have taken the time to understand these engines and you'll have a cracker.
Petrol_fumes said:
I'm probably being paranoid, but I've been reading a little bit about K-Series Elise's in an attempt to educate myself as I've never been much of a mechanical guy - however this has brought some concerns and wanted to ask some advice.
Over the past 4.5k miles I've needed to top up the coolant twice in my '96 S1 as it had fallen from Max to Min. Since the last top up (c.500 miles) it's been pretty static but I have a concern that this may suggest a head gasket failure. The car can also runs to over 100/110 degrees in really heavy traffic - until now I assumed that was normal or 2 small individual issues.
...However the car hasn't used any oil over this period and there is no oil in the coolant tank nor any mayonnaise in the coolant tank/ on the oil cap.
Paranoia or legit concerns...?
don;t worry, the issue you have is the bottle should not be marked min-max, if you fill it to max, then when it get's hot (in traffic etc) it will just push out the excess water, when cold, just fill to min and it won't do it any more.Over the past 4.5k miles I've needed to top up the coolant twice in my '96 S1 as it had fallen from Max to Min. Since the last top up (c.500 miles) it's been pretty static but I have a concern that this may suggest a head gasket failure. The car can also runs to over 100/110 degrees in really heavy traffic - until now I assumed that was normal or 2 small individual issues.
...However the car hasn't used any oil over this period and there is no oil in the coolant tank nor any mayonnaise in the coolant tank/ on the oil cap.
Paranoia or legit concerns...?
Also, if you have been loosing water, change the pressure cap, once they have been pushed open (by excess water) they usually fail to seal down properly again.
Scuffers said:
don;t worry, the issue you have is the bottle should not be marked min-max, if you fill it to max, then when it get's hot (in traffic etc) it will just push out the excess water, when cold, just fill to min and it won't do it any more.
Also, if you have been loosing water, change the pressure cap, once they have been pushed open (by excess water) they usually fail to seal down properly again.
Quite. An expansion tank designed for a car with 4 litres of coolant doesn't suit one with 8 litres in it. They're usually happy to sit just below the min mark when cold. Also, if you have been loosing water, change the pressure cap, once they have been pushed open (by excess water) they usually fail to seal down properly again.
I have recently purchased an S1 Elise and think it is great. The cooling system has started to show signs there may be a problem, however. When I first picked up the car the coolant ran at about 89 - 90 degrees when driving normally. I did a trackday and noted when driving hard the temperature actually dropped to 87 degrees.
Just recently, the normal running temperature has increased to 91 degrees, and when idling it quickly increased to 96 degrees, although I have not let it idle long enough to see if the temperature rises any higher. When you increase engine rpm the temperature immediately drops back to 91 degrees? The header tank had a slight crack in it so I replaced it, but not the pressure cap...I have just bought one so will see if that sorts the problem?
I must admit my instinct tells me there is a fault with the water pump, although this does not explain why the engine runs at a slightly higher than normal temperature.
Any other ideas?...obviously it could be signs the head gasket is starting to fail, but coolant and engine oil are all clear. The head has been off in the past and lots of upgrades were carried out and the previous owner had given the car plenty of grief over several years without any issues? I am also careful about warming and cooling down engines...
Just recently, the normal running temperature has increased to 91 degrees, and when idling it quickly increased to 96 degrees, although I have not let it idle long enough to see if the temperature rises any higher. When you increase engine rpm the temperature immediately drops back to 91 degrees? The header tank had a slight crack in it so I replaced it, but not the pressure cap...I have just bought one so will see if that sorts the problem?
I must admit my instinct tells me there is a fault with the water pump, although this does not explain why the engine runs at a slightly higher than normal temperature.
Any other ideas?...obviously it could be signs the head gasket is starting to fail, but coolant and engine oil are all clear. The head has been off in the past and lots of upgrades were carried out and the previous owner had given the car plenty of grief over several years without any issues? I am also careful about warming and cooling down engines...
CTE said:
I have recently purchased an S1 Elise and think it is great. The cooling system has started to show signs there may be a problem, however. When I first picked up the car the coolant ran at about 89 - 90 degrees when driving normally. I did a trackday and noted when driving hard the temperature actually dropped to 87 degrees.
Just recently, the normal running temperature has increased to 91 degrees, and when idling it quickly increased to 96 degrees, although I have not let it idle long enough to see if the temperature rises any higher. When you increase engine rpm the temperature immediately drops back to 91 degrees? The header tank had a slight crack in it so I replaced it, but not the pressure cap...I have just bought one so will see if that sorts the problem?
I must admit my instinct tells me there is a fault with the water pump, although this does not explain why the engine runs at a slightly higher than normal temperature.
Any other ideas?...obviously it could be signs the head gasket is starting to fail, but coolant and engine oil are all clear. The head has been off in the past and lots of upgrades were carried out and the previous owner had given the car plenty of grief over several years without any issues? I am also careful about warming and cooling down engines...
Its more likely to be the temperature sender. Just recently, the normal running temperature has increased to 91 degrees, and when idling it quickly increased to 96 degrees, although I have not let it idle long enough to see if the temperature rises any higher. When you increase engine rpm the temperature immediately drops back to 91 degrees? The header tank had a slight crack in it so I replaced it, but not the pressure cap...I have just bought one so will see if that sorts the problem?
I must admit my instinct tells me there is a fault with the water pump, although this does not explain why the engine runs at a slightly higher than normal temperature.
Any other ideas?...obviously it could be signs the head gasket is starting to fail, but coolant and engine oil are all clear. The head has been off in the past and lots of upgrades were carried out and the previous owner had given the car plenty of grief over several years without any issues? I am also careful about warming and cooling down engines...
The sender itself is a single wire resistor to earth. The entire earth system on the car is notoriously bad what with them having an anodised aluminium chassis (which doesn't conduct very well). If you clean up the rivnut where the earth strap is bolted to the chassis and make sure the strap itself is in good condition you'll probably find the temperature displayed will drop a degree or two.
Great answer...warmed car up and it struggled to get over 90 degrees stationary, so as always switched lights on to drive and hey presto the temperature reading shot up. With lights off and driving normally the temp reads 87 degrees, touching 88 degrees from a thrashing...that`s a relief. Switch headlights on and the temp immediately reads 91 degrees...who`d have guessed it?
All the best for the New Year.
All the best for the New Year.
having a 98 series 1 and afther buying replaced the coolant hoses with the remote thermostat option and 82 degrees thermostat , temp nice in the 82 to 85 range , come rain come shine.
as far as i know its meant to be around mid 80;s for normal driving conditions.
before that i had temps uo to 110 driving in town, scary.
as far as i know its meant to be around mid 80;s for normal driving conditions.
before that i had temps uo to 110 driving in town, scary.
having a 98 series 1 and afther buying replaced the coolant hoses with the remote thermostat option and 82 degrees thermostat , temp nice in the 82 to 85 range , come rain come shine.
as far as i know its meant to be around mid 80;s for normal driving conditions.
before that i had temps uo to 110 driving in town, scary.
as far as i know its meant to be around mid 80;s for normal driving conditions.
before that i had temps uo to 110 driving in town, scary.
On a slightly different note I have set the coolant level on my K-series S2 to sit at the low mark on the reservoir. However if I check the level the day after using the car the level will be 1 cm or so below the low mark. If I unscrew the expansion cap the coolant gushes back into the reservoir bringing the level back up to the low mark.
I have had the head gasket checked and its fine with no other signs of failure and I have replaced the expansion cap with a new one, but the issue is still there. Does anyone know if I should be worried about this or not and what it could be please? The never used to happen.
Thanks
I have had the head gasket checked and its fine with no other signs of failure and I have replaced the expansion cap with a new one, but the issue is still there. Does anyone know if I should be worried about this or not and what it could be please? The never used to happen.
Thanks
Thanks for this informative thread. I have a '99 135 Sport and the coolant thing has dogged it on track days/harshest use. Experts [Esprit Engineering] sorted any basic motor problems, but still do have apparent head/expansion tank cap failures. All normal temps [for Elise] when driving, but as soon as it idles at 96 degrees standstill the tank caps [I have had four, three all X-part numbered and sourced] start to audibly let out air and slight dribble of coolant down header tank.
This is currently restricting my enjoyment of the car--used once/ twice a week for a country road commute--so any suggestions welcome. Header tank is less than a year old and all coolant escapes seem to be from top cap.
23-10-17: add to topic.
This turned out to be a cylinder head off job---initial examination at Esprit Engineering showed a watery reflection in cylinder 3. But it was not the usual diagnosis of a cracked head,shifted liner or failed head gasket. Factually it was something the professionals had not seen for years, and then it was their Esprit experience that probably betrayed the fault. Microscopic examination showed a tiny blow-by in that third cylinder multi-layer gasket, consequent on a minute [only instrumentation revealed it, not by eye] depression in the cylinder liner, upper edge.
Aside from a new multi-layer gasket, most of the 12-hour investigation and rectification time was expended machining the block face and top ring section of liner to ensure a proper surface to surface interface. Esprit Engineering and I have run 90 miles of harsh cross check motoring over three test sessions and this Elise is now fine for road use to the limits the factory intended: expansion chamber water levels now as intended on midway between Fill and Full markings.
I hope do not have to add to this topic, no comment means it also passed track and more prolonged use beyond 6000 rpm.
This is currently restricting my enjoyment of the car--used once/ twice a week for a country road commute--so any suggestions welcome. Header tank is less than a year old and all coolant escapes seem to be from top cap.
23-10-17: add to topic.
This turned out to be a cylinder head off job---initial examination at Esprit Engineering showed a watery reflection in cylinder 3. But it was not the usual diagnosis of a cracked head,shifted liner or failed head gasket. Factually it was something the professionals had not seen for years, and then it was their Esprit experience that probably betrayed the fault. Microscopic examination showed a tiny blow-by in that third cylinder multi-layer gasket, consequent on a minute [only instrumentation revealed it, not by eye] depression in the cylinder liner, upper edge.
Aside from a new multi-layer gasket, most of the 12-hour investigation and rectification time was expended machining the block face and top ring section of liner to ensure a proper surface to surface interface. Esprit Engineering and I have run 90 miles of harsh cross check motoring over three test sessions and this Elise is now fine for road use to the limits the factory intended: expansion chamber water levels now as intended on midway between Fill and Full markings.
I hope do not have to add to this topic, no comment means it also passed track and more prolonged use beyond 6000 rpm.
Edited by jay27 on Monday 23 October 15:40
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