Why the Honda and Ford engine changes
Discussion
Sadly i am not a owner but I have seen a few Elise S1 in the other section that have had the rover engines replaced with VTEC units or duratec units. Head gasket excepted I always thought the Rover engine was a good light weight unit???
So why are the swaps so common? Also what other units go in?
So why are the swaps so common? Also what other units go in?
Edited by H100S on Sunday 4th December 20:41
The main reason is that the sensible, cost-effective limit for tuning the K-series is about 175-190bhp (depending on whether you go to throttle bodies).
You can get more out of them (up to 260bhp+), but the costs become increasingly scary and the longevity/reliability drops off.
The other big flaw with the K-series in the Elise, IMO, is that the gearchange is pretty awful, but that's not usually the reason for an upgrade.
You can get more out of them (up to 260bhp+), but the costs become increasingly scary and the longevity/reliability drops off.
The other big flaw with the K-series in the Elise, IMO, is that the gearchange is pretty awful, but that's not usually the reason for an upgrade.
Sam_68 said:
The main reason is that the sensible, cost-effective limit for tuning the K-series is about 175-190bhp (depending on whether you go to throttle bodies).
You can get more out of them (up to 260bhp+), but the costs become increasingly scary and the longevity/reliability drops off.
The other big flaw with the K-series in the Elise, IMO, is that the gearchange is pretty awful, but that's not usually the reason for an upgrade.
In relation to lots of other cars, the gear change in **any** of the Elise variants is pretty awful IMO - I wouldn't pin that on K-series cars particularly. You can get more out of them (up to 260bhp+), but the costs become increasingly scary and the longevity/reliability drops off.
The other big flaw with the K-series in the Elise, IMO, is that the gearchange is pretty awful, but that's not usually the reason for an upgrade.
Agree with the rest of it though - tuning the K can get scary expensive, and there seem to be loads of arguments about whether it will be reliable over 170, 180bhp.
You can get to 160ish for around £2000 - I stopped there, seemed like the best compromise. Cams, ported/polished head, bigger valves, 4-2-1 manifold etc etc. It is a great engine though - one of the lightest, plenty of torque, mine now revs happily past 7000rpm - I love it.
Lots of people want over 200bhp, and it's a lot easier to get that amount out of other engines without them being particularly stressed.
Personally, I'd go for a Duratec conversion and settle for 200-220bhp if forced to change, but doesn't seem worth the £10k for an extra 40-60bhp, and I'm not worried about reliability now I've had the K sorted properly.
Supercharged, chargecooled Honda conversions, big power Audi conversions - running 300bhp+ - seem to be silly money, I just couldn't justify spending £15-£20k on my car.
pthelazyjourno said:
In relation to lots of other cars, the gear change in **any** of the Elise variants is pretty awful IMO - I wouldn't pin that on K-series cars particularly.
You think? The Toyota engined variants (6 speed only) that I've driven have been vastly better than any of the K-series, but maybe I've just been lucky/unlucky?Still a mid-engined linkage, of course, so they're never going to be as good as an Elan, MX5 or S2000, but pretty acceptable in comparison to the PG1, none the less.
Sam_68 said:
You think? The Toyota engined variants (6 speed only) that I've driven have been vastly better than any of the K-series, but maybe I've just been lucky/unlucky?
Still a mid-engined linkage, of course, so they're never going to be as good as an Elan, MX5 or S2000, but pretty acceptable in comparison to the PG1, none the less.
How many K cars have you driven? How many Toyota cars?Still a mid-engined linkage, of course, so they're never going to be as good as an Elan, MX5 or S2000, but pretty acceptable in comparison to the PG1, none the less.
There are so many variables - lots of people fit quick shifts, mine has one - I hate them!!
Even the clutch - if that's not great, could find yourself fighting the gears, for instance.
Simply just regreasing the linkages makes a huge difference - perhaps the Toyota cars you tried felt better because they were 7, 8, 10 years newer, and nobody had tried to improve the one on the K.
Either way, Toyota ones I've tried have been average at best - I'd say it's definitely the Elises weakest point.
Toyota ones also struggle with big power (upwards of 280?) by most (all?) accounts.
pthelazyjourno said:
In relation to lots of other cars, the gear change in **any** of the Elise variants is pretty awful IMO - I wouldn't pin that on K-series cars particularly.
I found the shift in the 1.6 was pretty decent, miles better than my PG1 box - find the lower gears hard to reach with the standard shifter in the S1 and my cars quick shift makes it quite notchy. As for why people change, as above it's hard to see much over 200bhp reliably, Turbo Technics offered a 230bhp s/c kit and Hangar 111 have dyno'd a new s/c build at 268bhp but both these involve rebuilding the engine internally to strengthen it.
By contrast there are numerous Honda s/c cars running over 300bhp.
Thorburn said:
I found the shift in the 1.6 was pretty decent, miles better than my PG1 box - find the lower gears hard to reach with the standard shifter in the S1 and my cars quick shift makes it quite notchy.
As for why people change, as above it's hard to see much over 200bhp reliably, Turbo Technics offered a 230bhp s/c kit and Hangar 111 have dyno'd a new s/c build at 268bhp but both these involve rebuilding the engine internally to strengthen it.
By contrast there are numerous Honda s/c cars running over 300bhp.
Fair point, havent tried the 1.6.As for why people change, as above it's hard to see much over 200bhp reliably, Turbo Technics offered a 230bhp s/c kit and Hangar 111 have dyno'd a new s/c build at 268bhp but both these involve rebuilding the engine internally to strengthen it.
By contrast there are numerous Honda s/c cars running over 300bhp.
That said, bit harsh to fit aftermarket parts - the quick shift - and then blame the gearbox for being notchy!!
Surely the reach thing is more ergonomics / you being outside of the 90th percentile or whatever they designed the car around, than gearbox related...
I agree though - quickshift does make it very notchy, that's why I prefer the standard setup.
I guess you get used to it though, and work around it. Call it character!! I never think about it these days.
pthelazyjourno said:
How many K cars have you driven? How many Toyota cars?
K cars, dunno, lost track... more than a dozen; owned two.Toyota cars; 4, I think - 2 x Exiges, 2 x 111R's
The PG1 seems very variable; every one I've driven has had a slightly different feel and my first car I selected pretty much just because it had by far the best gearchange of the ones I drove.
By the time I'd fitted a linkage kit and short shifter and adjusted it, it was acceptable (though it always felt a bit 'stringy' and lightweight due to the 'low inertia' approach). My second S1 (a Sport 160), I was never really happy with: even after fitting the short shift and linkage kit, and adjusting everything, it was always a bit notchy, and baulked a bit into first. Both were fairly low mileage cars, though, and both were properly adjusted and maintained by the time I'd finished with them. Some of the S1's I've driven have had really, really nasty gearchanges in comparison. My girlfriend at the time couldn't get on with the short shift on the S160 so I changed it back, but I preferred it - it added a bit of weight.
The Toyota engined cars had more slack in the linkages, if anything, but the actual shifts were much slicker and felt more mechanical, and the gate better defined.
I agree that whatever the flavour, the gearbox is the Elise's weakest link, though. To be fair, if you want a truly awful gearchange, you need to drive a Europa (the original one)... and if you want a truly superb one, drive an Elan.
pthelazyjourno said:
That said, bit harsh to fit aftermarket parts - the quick shift - and then blame the gearbox for being notchy!!
Surely the reach thing is more ergonomics / you being outside of the 90th percentile or whatever they designed the car around, than gearbox related...
Didn't blame the box, I said the quick shift makes it notchy. Surely the reach thing is more ergonomics / you being outside of the 90th percentile or whatever they designed the car around, than gearbox related...
Reach it probably the wrong word, I just find the throw of the standard shifter way too long and unsuited to accurate gear selection when pushing on, no doubt in part due to being used to the quick shifter of my car.
Didn't have any issues in the 111R and 1.6's that I've driven.
Gearshift on my Exige is woeful - doesn't self-centre, really spongey, pretty vague and engaging reverse is a matter of sheer good fortune. In fact it was a genuine concern before I bought the car. However, once moving I don't notice it too much and you simply learn to carefully palm across the gate. By comparison the box on my 111R was fine - the throw is too long and you have to take your time between 2nd and 3rd but otherwise it was a nice, well-defined, mechanical action which I rather enjoyed. I must be in the minority though...
chevronb37 said:
Gearshift on my Exige is woeful - doesn't self-centre, really spongey, pretty vague and engaging reverse is a matter of sheer good fortune. In fact it was a genuine concern before I bought the car. However, once moving I don't notice it too much and you simply learn to carefully palm across the gate. By comparison the box on my 111R was fine - the throw is too long and you have to take your time between 2nd and 3rd but otherwise it was a nice, well-defined, mechanical action which I rather enjoyed. I must be in the minority though...
Spring on my Elise has broken so mine doesn't self-centre either. I was going to get it fixed - but like you say you just learn to move it precisely yourself! Don't really think about it anymore.
I think the problems come when you try and rush the changes - take your time and either is OK. OK is a bit crap when you look at the rest of the chassis, steering, brake feel etc.
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