111R or 111S - not a performance Q!

[crazy6]

Ex S1 owner looking to get into an S2 in the new year (stuck with the Mr2 roadster til then).

I want to buy with a view to using it as a daily driver (short distance) and also keeping it until the car or I die! I am assuming that the Toyota engine is the safer option given the UK climate and the daily 10 minute drive to and from work? Toyota engine and reliability etc...

I really liked my K series and it was nice and torque'y', which I loved. But I'm thinking it may be a little precious for my requirements?

Any thoughts appreciated. I'll be going for a drive in both variants over Xmas to get a feel for the response of the R vs S - this Q is more about commonsense and information from those in similar situations.

[doggydave]

You might be better off doing a search for this topic as it has been done many times in the past. You have really answered your own question, drive both. The 111s does make a good every day car especially with the hardtop. Never had a 111r. Good luck.

[pthelazyjourno]

What's the climate got to do with it?

I would - and did - go for the K Series, it suits the Elise perfectly.

The only issue that comes up again and again when this question is asked is the head gasket...

So either buy one that's been fixed by DVA or Sabre Heads, or put the money aside that you save over an R, and get it either upgraded yourself, or wait until it goes. Either way, it's not the problem that lots of people turn it into.

[Ireland]

I had an S1 a few years ago, had a few other cars since then and now have a 111R.

The 111R is a far superior machine to the S1 in just about every way.

If you go for the 111R you won't be disappointed.

[pthelazyjourno]

Ireland said:

I had an S1 a few years ago, had a few other cars since then and now have a 111R.

The 111R is a far superior machine to the S1 in just about every way.

If you go for the 111R you won't be disappointed.

He's not questioning the S1 vs S2 - he's asking about whether the S2 Rover engined cars are usable everyday propositions - and the answer is yes.

In terms of fuel consumption, price, cost of parts, usable torque, they're far better than the R.

In terms of top end power, the R is a better choice.

I'd go for the 111S.

[kambites]

I would (and did) go for a 111S. Sure you'll have to replace the head gasket at some point, but do it properly and it should only be once. In cost terms, that'll be paid for in a couple of years by the difference in tax and fuel consumption. Otherwise, the K-series is a reasonably reliable engine.

Drive both and see which you prefer.



If you do get a 111S, get an MY04 car or later, since that was when the fixed the last of the chronic roof leaks. Ideally find one with the later heater resistor pack too, or you'll be replacing that at some point.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 25th October 08:32

[Thorburn]

I have to say I don't really enjoy using my S1 for short trips - I used to drive it every day 3 miles across town to work and it brings out all the worst points about the car. Found I was suffering from all the compromises and none of the enjoyment and it started to grate on me.

An S2 will be a lot more liveable day to day, although still a compromise, particularly as said above if you get one of the later 111S's or a Toyota engined car. I'd also consider the Toyota engined S, it's lower powered but very different in character to the R and is at least worth a test drive.

[crazy6]

I used to spend time warming up the K series before having any fun with it and on a short trip to work I just thought the bulletproof Toyota would be a better option and less 'precious'.

Owned the S1 for 3 years without issue so HGF while a possibility, doesn't worry me. I just want the best combination of fun and long term robustness.

[Thorburn]

crazy6 said:

I used to spend time warming up the K series before having any fun with it and on a short trip to work I just thought the bulletproof Toyota would be a better option and less 'precious'.

To be fair, that applies to any engine really. You don't want to thrash them from cold.

With the 111R I don't think it'll switch to the high lift cams until the oil temperature and pressure have reached a certain level.

[kambites]

The VVC K-series limits you to about 4500rpm until it's up to temperature, too.

[bordseye]

crazy6 said:

I used to spend time warming up the K series before having any fun with it and on a short trip to work I just thought the bulletproof Toyota would be a better option and less 'precious'.

Owned the S1 for 3 years without issue so HGF while a possibility, doesn't worry me. I just want the best combination of fun and long term robustness.

Fun is a personal thing though I would be surprised if you didnt find the 8000rpm and second cam surge of the 111R to be fun.

As for reliability / useability you already know the answer. Rover didnt go out of business by building more reliable cars than Toyota ;-) . Ask any Lotus dealer or even Lotus themselves which car will give you least aggro problem wise. Mind you that doesnt mean a K series car will be breaking down every week - all cars are far better than they used to be so the choice is between not bad reliability in the K and almost total reliability in the Yota.

[Beachbum]

I'm interested in people definition of expense. Having only ever owned a 111R, I can only comment on how little I feel it costs me to run. I drive it every day to and from work, 7 miles each way on a combination of in town and minor A roads, I also go for the (very) odd blast at weekends and get 35mpg from a tank. Tyres, servicing etc cost me no more than any other car I have owned. I have stuck to the Bridgestones that they were fitted with and servicing is overall cheaper than the Rover engine, if for no other reason than no cam belt needs replacing.

So what am I missing ?

[kambites]

Beachbum said:

I'm interested in people definition of expense. Having only ever owned a 111R, I can only comment on how little I feel it costs me to run. I drive it every day to and from work, 7 miles each way on a combination of in town and minor A roads, I also go for the (very) odd blast at weekends and get 35mpg from a tank. Tyres, servicing etc cost me no more than any other car I have owned. I have stuck to the Bridgestones that they were fitted with and servicing is overall cheaper than the Rover engine, if for no other reason than no cam belt needs replacing.

So what am I missing ?

The K-series is cheaper to tax, cheaper to fuel and typically cheaper to insure. The Toyota is cheaper to service and will generally need less repairs, although repairs will typically be more expensive if it does need them. There wont be much in it either way, overall. When I looked at it, I decided that "worst case" costs for the K-series engine problems would still work out marginally cheaper than the Toyota, and I preferred the way the K-series drove, which made it a bit of a no-brainer for me.

I think comparing running costs is a bit pointless really - one shouldn't assume that either can be run on a shoestring, although neither is likely to be ruinous either. I think the OP should just buy whichever he thinks is the better car to drive.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 26th October 09:45

[dgr]

Talking about this thread last night as I saw my old 111S driving home. I used to have a 2002 111S which I covered 26000 miles in 2.5 years. I then traded it in for a brand new 111R in 2007 which I have since clocked up 41000 miles in.

The thing I liked the most when I first got the new car was the lack of rattles, the newer car was appreciatively better screwed together. After 41000 miles it's still not rattling. I find the probax seats more commfortable and they have worn better than my old car. Lastly the ABS means that an emergency stop is shall we say less spectacular!

So in short buy the newest car you can, post 2006 improvements are worth having if your budget reaches that far.

The question for me now is do I trade in my 111R for the new supercharged one when it comes out next year?

[kambites]

It's certainly true to say that the cars got continually better built as the years went by, although of course not all 111Rs are newer than all 111Ss, since they were made in parallel for a while.

[pthelazyjourno]

dgr said:

Talking about this thread last night as I saw my old 111S driving home. I used to have a 2002 111S which I covered 26000 miles in 2.5 years. I then traded it in for a brand new 111R in 2007 which I have since clocked up 41000 miles in.

The thing I liked the most when I first got the new car was the lack of rattles, the newer car was appreciatively better screwed together. After 41000 miles it's still not rattling. I find the probax seats more commfortable and they have worn better than my old car. Lastly the ABS means that an emergency stop is shall we say less spectacular!

So in short buy the newest car you can, post 2006 improvements are worth having if your budget reaches that far.

The question for me now is do I trade in my 111R for the new supercharged one when it comes out next year?

You've got a good one there then - I know plenty of people with Elises of the same age that rattle and buzz.

It's frustrating as there's not exactly much on them to rattle!!

I'd love to have ABS, that's the one thing I miss on my S1, don't care what all the god-like drivers say, it's bloody useful for the odd emergency on the road.

[Thorburn]

pthelazyjourno said:

I'd love to have ABS, that's the one thing I miss on my S1, don't care what all the god-like drivers say, it's bloody useful for the odd emergency on the road.

Only downside I found when driving the 111R and S2 Facelift 1.6 back to back with my S1 was the servos made the top of the pedal travel a bit more 'grabby'. Still vastly better than most cars, but not quite as progressive as the S1.

Have to say, the Evoras brakes are fantastic for a servo assisted setup IMO.

[Shnozz]

An advantage of the R is that when you get bored of the power, you can bolt on a supercharger. Yes, you could swap the K for a Honda in a 111S, but assuming a turn-key conversion, double the cost of supercharging the Toyota lump.

The 100bhp difference (and the way it is delivered) is very, very evident between my 111S and supercharged Exige.

[kambites]

True, but if you're willing to spend the money, a supercharged K20 will make a supercharged 111R look rather silly. You get what you pay for.

You can also supercharge the K-series, if you want to.

[pthelazyjourno]

I'd also imagine the costs in upgrading are offset by the fact the 111S is cheaper to buy in the first place.

Although which would be easier to sell - a Honda'd S2 or a modified supercharged R - is anyone's guess. I'd bet the Honda being more in demand, however, as buyers wanting a supercharged car could opt for a factory Elise or Exige.