Changing the 190 Toyota cam change point
Discussion
Is moving the cam change point a good idea on the Toyota cars? I know the Hondas lower it so on track you are basically never out of vtec, is doing the same with the Toyota beneficial?
I ask as I may not use the non LSD gearbox from the Celica and stick to the 1ZZ 6speed LSD box form the mr2 if the high lift region can be stretched so it doesn't fall off cam between changes.
I ask as I may not use the non LSD gearbox from the Celica and stick to the 1ZZ 6speed LSD box form the mr2 if the high lift region can be stretched so it doesn't fall off cam between changes.
I can't say as I haven't got an NA car however people I know who have had it done tell me it makes the power a little more accessable more of the time without having to rev the nuts off it all the time to make sure you stay above the cam change point at each gear change. No benefit in ultimate power output though!
Herman Toothrot said:
400SE Dave said:
Can be done, it is a re-flash of the ECU and can be done and Chris Neils and I guess other Lotus dealers also. About £500 iirc
Oh no problem with getting it done, more a question of is it worth it, as in any benefit to power?Hum, looking at the ratio's from Wiki it appears confused but :-
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th Reverse Final
3.166 2.050 1.481 1.166 0.916 0.725 3.250 4.5 Possibly USA mk3 MR2 1ZZ (C60)
3.166 1.904 1.310 1.031 0.864 0.725 3.941 3.9 Possibly Europe Mk3 MR2 1ZZ (C63)
3.166 2.050 1.481 1.166 0.916 0.725 3.250 4.5 Possibly the UK Celica & Lotus 2ZZ (C64)
So if I keep my MR2 box, its either the same ratios or I just get a bit lower gearing 1- 5th and same 6th Cruising gear, which would be a good thing wouldn't it? Actually a closer ratio box so easier to keep on cam?
I keep being told the Celica box matches the 2ZZ engine better than the 1ZZ box, i'm thinking "better" is subjective?
edit, just noticed the final drives are different 3.9 v's 4.5 for the Celica box
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th Reverse Final
3.166 2.050 1.481 1.166 0.916 0.725 3.250 4.5 Possibly USA mk3 MR2 1ZZ (C60)
3.166 1.904 1.310 1.031 0.864 0.725 3.941 3.9 Possibly Europe Mk3 MR2 1ZZ (C63)
3.166 2.050 1.481 1.166 0.916 0.725 3.250 4.5 Possibly the UK Celica & Lotus 2ZZ (C64)
So if I keep my MR2 box, its either the same ratios or I just get a bit lower gearing 1- 5th and same 6th Cruising gear, which would be a good thing wouldn't it? Actually a closer ratio box so easier to keep on cam?
I keep being told the Celica box matches the 2ZZ engine better than the 1ZZ box, i'm thinking "better" is subjective?
edit, just noticed the final drives are different 3.9 v's 4.5 for the Celica box
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Wednesday 17th August 16:49
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Wednesday 17th August 16:51
I have just had it done...for a lot less than £500-00...nearer £150-00....direct with Lotus after sales at Norwich. I believe Christopher Niels are very competitve.
Is it worth it?....on the road it makes a small difference, and if driving on the road were my only plan for the car, I would not bother, but I have my first trackday Saturday, so I will be able to make a proper judgement, but my intial thoughts are that it will make it easier to keep it on the boil all the time, which is a definate positive. Not worth £500-00 though!
Is it worth it?....on the road it makes a small difference, and if driving on the road were my only plan for the car, I would not bother, but I have my first trackday Saturday, so I will be able to make a proper judgement, but my intial thoughts are that it will make it easier to keep it on the boil all the time, which is a definate positive. Not worth £500-00 though!
400SE Dave said:
Can be done, it is a re-flash of the ECU and can be done and Chris Neils and I guess other Lotus dealers also. About £500 iirc
Currently on offer at CN:http://www.oakmeremotorgroup.co.uk/lotus/service-o...
theturbs said:
Nice to know that I haven't lost my marbles totally 
icepop said:
This brings back the ridiculous situation, of driving Variable Valve cars on the road, my Honda Type R used to drive me mental in that respect, and made me glad I stuck to a std K series in the Elise.
how so?(and variable valve has nothing to do with Vtec if that's what your getting at)
So, got to decide this week where I want the switch over point to be do people think 5700rpm is where it should be, I think a touch lower would be better? I have gone for the Celica closer ratio's with the MR2's LSD / Final drive.
Gear ratios should be this from what I read :-
1st 3.166 mph@5700rpm = 32 mph@8200rpm = 46
2nd 2.050 mph@5700rpm = 50 mph@8200rpm = 72
3rd 1.481 mph@5700rpm = 69 mph@8200rpm = 100
4th 1.166 mph@5700rpm = 88 mph@8200rpm = 127
5th 0.916 mph@5700rpm = 112 mph@8200rpm = 161
6th 0.815 mph@5700rpm = 126 mph@8200rpm = 181
3.941 (LSD)
A bit high geared really but I want to keep the LSD.
1st 3.166 mph@5700rpm = 28 mph@8200rpm = 40
2nd 2.050 mph@5700rpm = 44 mph@8200rpm = 63
3rd 1.481 mph@5700rpm = 60 mph@8200rpm = 88
4th 1.166 mph@5700rpm = 77 mph@8200rpm = 111
5th 0.916 mph@5700rpm = 98 mph@8200rpm = 141
6th 0.815 mph@5700rpm = 110 mph@8200rpm = 159
4.5 Celica final drive on to LSD
Which looks a lot better, spoken to Rogue and they do that. So anyone with a high power Exige who wants a better top end Rogue have a 3.9 final drive going spare from my box
Gear ratios should be this from what I read :-
1st 3.166 mph@5700rpm = 32 mph@8200rpm = 46
2nd 2.050 mph@5700rpm = 50 mph@8200rpm = 72
3rd 1.481 mph@5700rpm = 69 mph@8200rpm = 100
4th 1.166 mph@5700rpm = 88 mph@8200rpm = 127
5th 0.916 mph@5700rpm = 112 mph@8200rpm = 161
6th 0.815 mph@5700rpm = 126 mph@8200rpm = 181
3.941 (LSD)
A bit high geared really but I want to keep the LSD.
- EDIT* Just found the final drive can be swapped between diffs, so going to 4.5 final drive so idential ratios to the Celica/ Elise but retain the LSD.
1st 3.166 mph@5700rpm = 28 mph@8200rpm = 40
2nd 2.050 mph@5700rpm = 44 mph@8200rpm = 63
3rd 1.481 mph@5700rpm = 60 mph@8200rpm = 88
4th 1.166 mph@5700rpm = 77 mph@8200rpm = 111
5th 0.916 mph@5700rpm = 98 mph@8200rpm = 141
6th 0.815 mph@5700rpm = 110 mph@8200rpm = 159
4.5 Celica final drive on to LSD
Which looks a lot better, spoken to Rogue and they do that. So anyone with a high power Exige who wants a better top end Rogue have a 3.9 final drive going spare from my box
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Tuesday 6th September 09:56
I also read early JDM Celicas had an 8600rpm limit, do the Lotus remaps raise the limit to this level or stick with 8200rpm?
I'm thinking 5500rpm for lift to start and a limit of 8500rpm would be ideal, a nice 3000rpm rev range to stay in on track.
I'm thinking 5500rpm for lift to start and a limit of 8500rpm would be ideal, a nice 3000rpm rev range to stay in on track.
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Tuesday 6th September 13:24
liamgt4 said:
VTEC
Is a valve train system it not only varies the timing but also lift the valves.
VVT-i
It varies the timing of the intake valves by adjusting the camshaft drive and intake camshaft. Does not lift the valves.
The 2ZZ-GE uses the VVTL-i system though, which does change the lift.Is a valve train system it not only varies the timing but also lift the valves.
VVT-i
It varies the timing of the intake valves by adjusting the camshaft drive and intake camshaft. Does not lift the valves.
Some information on the VVTL-i system and remapping for the lower cam change here: http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Toyota_engines#2ZZ-GE
Thorburn said:
liamgt4 said:
VTEC
Is a valve train system it not only varies the timing but also lift the valves.
VVT-i
It varies the timing of the intake valves by adjusting the camshaft drive and intake camshaft. Does not lift the valves.
The 2ZZ-GE uses the VVTL-i system though, which does change the lift.Is a valve train system it not only varies the timing but also lift the valves.
VVT-i
It varies the timing of the intake valves by adjusting the camshaft drive and intake camshaft. Does not lift the valves.
Some information on the VVTL-i system and remapping for the lower cam change here: http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Toyota_engines#2ZZ-GE
Honda terminology
VTC - Variable valve timing - as in the camshaft is rotated round like a hydraulic vernier pulley
VTec - Variable lift - or more precisely, two cam distinct profiles with a hard switch between them
iVTec is basically both.
the 2ZZ is the same technically, just they use different terminology.
Most modern engines have variable cam timing these days, it;s almost de-rigger to get though EU5
BMW - Valvetronic, VANOS and Double VANOS
Mazda - S-VT
Mitsubishi - MIVEC
Nissan - N-VCT, VVL , CVTC and VVEL
Porsche - VarioCam and VarioCam Plus
Subaru - AVCS and AVLS
Volkswagen - VVT
Audi - VVT
Volvo - CVVT
Hyundai – MPI, CVVT, VTVT
Personally, I woudln't bother.
I have heard from several people who have changed the cam point that the car hasn't ran that well for a while as the ECU needs to adapt and also people have had issues of MIL lights coming on and have had to reset them. I have left my R as it is and having done several tracky days I have never had an issue with the second cam point. I also personally think the re-flash loses some of the cars charecter, as you lose the real kick of the second cam
I have heard from several people who have changed the cam point that the car hasn't ran that well for a while as the ECU needs to adapt and also people have had issues of MIL lights coming on and have had to reset them. I have left my R as it is and having done several tracky days I have never had an issue with the second cam point. I also personally think the re-flash loses some of the cars charecter, as you lose the real kick of the second cam
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