Will they be able to be maintained into old age
Discussion
Followed a group of old Triumphs/MG's t'other day, that pulled out in convoy in front of me. From TR6 to TR3's, and a few MGA's/MGC,s, each as would be imagined owned by enthusiasts and in lovely condition. When was the TR3 made do you think, about early 50's ? if so made the car around 60 years old.
Got me thinking about how Elises might fair, if a few of us owners decided to hang onto them for that length of time. Engines and running gear should not be an issue to maintain, (or change), but how will the specialist chassis lend itself to longevity, and inevitable repair/maintanance. Are their specialists already doing this type of work, or once damaged, is it bye-bye car.
Got me thinking about how Elises might fair, if a few of us owners decided to hang onto them for that length of time. Engines and running gear should not be an issue to maintain, (or change), but how will the specialist chassis lend itself to longevity, and inevitable repair/maintanance. Are their specialists already doing this type of work, or once damaged, is it bye-bye car.
icepop said:
Followed a group of old Triumphs/MG's t'other day, that pulled out in convoy in front of me. From TR6 to TR3's, and a few MGA's/MGC,s, each as would be imagined owned by enthusiasts and in lovely condition. When was the TR3 made do you think, about early 50's ? if so made the car around 60 years old.
Got me thinking about how Elises might fair, if a few of us owners decided to hang onto them for that length of time. Engines and running gear should not be an issue to maintain, (or change), but how will the specialist chassis lend itself to longevity, and inevitable repair/maintanance. Are their specialists already doing this type of work, or once damaged, is it bye-bye car.
What happens if petrol runs out? Will we even be able to use normal cars in 40 years time, or will we be priced off the roads? Got me thinking about how Elises might fair, if a few of us owners decided to hang onto them for that length of time. Engines and running gear should not be an issue to maintain, (or change), but how will the specialist chassis lend itself to longevity, and inevitable repair/maintanance. Are their specialists already doing this type of work, or once damaged, is it bye-bye car.
Planes are bonded and riveted together aren't they? They seem to do OK!
Cotty said:
Planes don't last for ever though.
True but they need to be far more stringently maintained than a car. I know of an aluminium racing yatch that has been doing the rounds for nearly 30 years and I can't think of a more corrosive environment that salt water. Lotus did accelerated ageing on the Elise chassis - it was fine after the equivalent of 25 years.
TIPPER said:
True but they need to be far more stringently maintained than a car. I know of an aluminium racing yatch that has been doing the rounds for nearly 30 years and I can't think of a more corrosive environment that salt water.
Lotus did accelerated ageing on the Elise chassis - it was fine after the equivalent of 25 years.
That was the sort of thing I was thinking about, but 25 years still would only put my model at 33 years old, sort of Escort Mk IV, age, still a good 30 years of the TR 3, and probably not prompting peeps to comment about "that lovely old Elise". Lotus did accelerated ageing on the Elise chassis - it was fine after the equivalent of 25 years.
Can the extruded chassis actually be fixed, after serious damage, not refering to new deformables, but proper damage, can large areas be welded etc. Iguessing that there are no new chassis available as they stopped producing them a while back did't they ?
Me too, as they are now making incredibly good sense as cars.
I probably haven't got my original question over very well, but basically, when I had a my Caterham, which was 20 years old, I had work done on the spaceframe chassis rails, to make it good as new, and this could have been done ad infinitum, as and when required. So my 7 could quite easily have gone on well into its very old age, with the various bits and pieces being replaced. I was questioning whether the Elise though, had an almost in-built redundancy, giving it a finite lifespan, due to the complexity and type of chassis used.
I expect that ali boat, like the plane fuselage, was maintained to within an inch of its life, and had an aweful lot more maintenance than any poor old Elise chassis.
I probably haven't got my original question over very well, but basically, when I had a my Caterham, which was 20 years old, I had work done on the spaceframe chassis rails, to make it good as new, and this could have been done ad infinitum, as and when required. So my 7 could quite easily have gone on well into its very old age, with the various bits and pieces being replaced. I was questioning whether the Elise though, had an almost in-built redundancy, giving it a finite lifespan, due to the complexity and type of chassis used.
I expect that ali boat, like the plane fuselage, was maintained to within an inch of its life, and had an aweful lot more maintenance than any poor old Elise chassis.
Aluminium can be repaired just like steel, but its a lot more costly and not being party to the stress analysis, do not know whether localised welding (thereby altering the material properties locally) would lead to fatigue failures etc.
Maybe the Lotus clubs could (club together!) and have a batch of chassis made for future needs?....mind you Tony Fernandes (Caterham) might get hold of the Elise rights and continue making them?
Maybe the Lotus clubs could (club together!) and have a batch of chassis made for future needs?....mind you Tony Fernandes (Caterham) might get hold of the Elise rights and continue making them?
Yes my thoughts were also wondering down the route of stress analysis, and to whether a "repaired" chassis would be insurable. Has anyone on here had a chassis repair done, and approved for road use ?
Gosh ! buying the tooling, that sounds serious, but more so the need for huge amounts of molten aluminum for the extruding tool itself.
Is there a defintive, "once the chassis is damaged, the vehicle is deemed a write-off" What about mounting points, how do they fair, someone must have had one torn off, was it fixed or scrapped ?
Sorry to appear like a vulture on the fence, but just really interested about the longevity of our great little cars.
Gosh ! buying the tooling, that sounds serious, but more so the need for huge amounts of molten aluminum for the extruding tool itself.
Is there a defintive, "once the chassis is damaged, the vehicle is deemed a write-off" What about mounting points, how do they fair, someone must have had one torn off, was it fixed or scrapped ?
Sorry to appear like a vulture on the fence, but just really interested about the longevity of our great little cars.
Yeah, after extrusion, you're right the majority of the chassis is bonded, and, as such, I think a jig is required to line all the bits up. As regards curing the bonded chassis, once jigged, a big autoclave would also be needed perhaps.
Wow, it's alot more than Arch, just welding tubes together. I wonder if the Alcan aluminium plant in Sweden will even keep the chassis plant operable, firms usualy don't if they are no longer being used, although surely a good few "run-out" chassis must have been produced. Wonder if anyone in SELOC might have access to this sort of info.
Wow, it's alot more than Arch, just welding tubes together. I wonder if the Alcan aluminium plant in Sweden will even keep the chassis plant operable, firms usualy don't if they are no longer being used, although surely a good few "run-out" chassis must have been produced. Wonder if anyone in SELOC might have access to this sort of info.
icepop said:
Yes my thoughts were also wondering down the route of stress analysis, and to whether a "repaired" chassis would be insurable. Has anyone on here had a chassis repair done, and approved for road use ?
Gosh ! buying the tooling, that sounds serious, but more so the need for huge amounts of molten aluminum for the extruding tool itself.
Is there a defintive, "once the chassis is damaged, the vehicle is deemed a write-off" What about mounting points, how do they fair, someone must have had one torn off, was it fixed or scrapped ?
Sorry to appear like a vulture on the fence, but just really interested about the longevity of our great little cars.
Someone in the US has repaired a chassis by disassembling two damaged cars and making one good one. They removed a damaged top front cross member from one chassis and bonded in a good one from another damaged chassis. The epoxy used by Lotus requires heat to cure (so that it can be done quickly) but there are other epoxys that have the same properties that cure at room temperature (just take longer - days rather than minutes). Clearly this repair was only possible because they had two damaged cars and the time to do the work (would have been cheaper to buy a new chassis from Lotus if they were having to pay for the labour).Gosh ! buying the tooling, that sounds serious, but more so the need for huge amounts of molten aluminum for the extruding tool itself.
Is there a defintive, "once the chassis is damaged, the vehicle is deemed a write-off" What about mounting points, how do they fair, someone must have had one torn off, was it fixed or scrapped ?
Sorry to appear like a vulture on the fence, but just really interested about the longevity of our great little cars.
Summary - it is possible... but not easy and was only possible because of the availability of second hand parts. This is not always going to be the case going forward.
Like you I'm interested because I plan to keep my Elise and hand it on to my kids (who won't even learn to drive for another decade)!!
kambites said:
I'm pretty sure someone will continue making the tub. After all, you can still buy Elan chassis new and they were sold in far smaller numbers.
True - but it is a simple welded steel assembly.icepop said:
Yes my thoughts were also wondering down the route of stress analysis, and to whether a "repaired" chassis would be insurable. Has anyone on here had a chassis repair done, and approved for road use ?
Gosh ! buying the tooling, that sounds serious, but more so the need for huge amounts of molten aluminum for the extruding tool itself.
Is there a defintive, "once the chassis is damaged, the vehicle is deemed a write-off" What about mounting points, how do they fair, someone must have had one torn off, was it fixed or scrapped ?
Sorry to appear like a vulture on the fence, but just really interested about the longevity of our great little cars.
to make the chassis again would be a simple commercial issue, whist there is tooling required, it's not mega-bucks stuff (remember, this is Lotus, at the time they did not have two shillings to rub together).Gosh ! buying the tooling, that sounds serious, but more so the need for huge amounts of molten aluminum for the extruding tool itself.
Is there a defintive, "once the chassis is damaged, the vehicle is deemed a write-off" What about mounting points, how do they fair, someone must have had one torn off, was it fixed or scrapped ?
Sorry to appear like a vulture on the fence, but just really interested about the longevity of our great little cars.
The company that makes the tubs was Holden Lightweight Structures Limited (formerly part of Hydro Aluminium) in Worcester, Lotus then acquired this in May 2008 and re-named it Lotus Lightweight Structures.
Technically, I am sure it would be easy enough for them to make as many as you want, the issue is one of Lotus not wanting to do it (I assume that doing them in very low numbers is just a PITA for them).
Scuffers said:
icepop said:
Yes my thoughts were also wondering down the route of stress analysis, and to whether a "repaired" chassis would be insurable. Has anyone on here had a chassis repair done, and approved for road use ?
Gosh ! buying the tooling, that sounds serious, but more so the need for huge amounts of molten aluminum for the extruding tool itself.
Is there a defintive, "once the chassis is damaged, the vehicle is deemed a write-off" What about mounting points, how do they fair, someone must have had one torn off, was it fixed or scrapped ?
Sorry to appear like a vulture on the fence, but just really interested about the longevity of our great little cars.
to make the chassis again would be a simple commercial issue, whist there is tooling required, it's not mega-bucks stuff (remember, this is Lotus, at the time they did not have two shillings to rub together).Gosh ! buying the tooling, that sounds serious, but more so the need for huge amounts of molten aluminum for the extruding tool itself.
Is there a defintive, "once the chassis is damaged, the vehicle is deemed a write-off" What about mounting points, how do they fair, someone must have had one torn off, was it fixed or scrapped ?
Sorry to appear like a vulture on the fence, but just really interested about the longevity of our great little cars.
The company that makes the tubs was Holden Lightweight Structures Limited (formerly part of Hydro Aluminium) in Worcester, Lotus then acquired this in May 2008 and re-named it Lotus Lightweight Structures.
Technically, I am sure it would be easy enough for them to make as many as you want, the issue is one of Lotus not wanting to do it (I assume that doing them in very low numbers is just a PITA for them).
icepop said:
But as the ELISE production is now, to all intents and purpose, ended, as far as LOTUS are concerned, they will not be inclined to fund, and maintain any facility to manufacture ELISE chassis for the next 15+ years, on the off chance that some are required, so ELISE chassis manufacturing is, effecively over. And, if the chassis cannot be maintained/repaired, in the manner that a space frame chassis is, it's reasonable then, to conclude that, Elises suffering any form of chassis damage/degredaton, will, more than likely have to be be written off. So the very uniquness of the Else, might after all be its Achilles heel, and our little cars might be outlived by Spitfires and MGB's, who would have thought.
don't agree with your logic on this, I am sure if Lotus were offered enough incentive, they would make them.asides that, the only issue with the chassis at the moment are corrosion (of the floor) and being crashed, asides from that, we have no reason to think they will age catastrophically.
For long term use the news is not good
Lotus consider the chassis to have a 8 year life span ( i.e. the length opt the warranty) anything else apparently is a bonus. They consider the chassis to be a non repairable structure end of topic, if the chassis needs repair then you need a new chassis. The exception appears to be when they have to pay for it i.e. the floors, when just gluing over it with a new piece of ali will be fine- i'm guessing just to get them to the 8 year stage when it's no longer their problem. Interestingly Aston martin who use the same chassis technology do repair them by bonding and riveting, but you can't weld the aluminium without weakening the surrounding ali.
Aluminium is resistant to corrosion as long as the oxide layer in intact and it ties time. Lotus happily ignored this in their testing by dipping an intact chassis in salt water and declaring oh that's resistant to corrosion. Their testing is akin to taking a piece of freshly painted steel and dipping in repeatedly into salt water then when it dries out claiming rest won't be a problem for 25 years.
The problem is electrolytic corrosion and although it's been known about for a long time, lotus seemed to have taken minimal efforts to prevent it. The real problem area is the wheel arches, the exposed chassis is hit by grit from the road causing defects in the oxide layer. This is made worse by the stupid decision to use steel wishbones, yes lotus engineering at it's best, it seems everyone else knew it a bad idea except lotus, although it looks like they finally learnt with the evora. Lotus chose to use steel wishbones i can only assume for cost, to stop the electrolytic corrosion they anodised the mounting bobbins but used mild steel shims on the front suspension which they then covered in a substance to prevent the electrolytic corrosion. Unfortunately this coating is about as hard as an HB pencil and is designed with a service life of 500-1000 hours, and the result is that in the abrasive environment of the wheel arch this comes off and they start rusting. When this happens the electrolytic corrosion it just a matter of time.
This could have been prevented by using ali wishbones or even sacrificial metals like in aluminium boats, but for some reason lotus chose not to do this.
We are all used to rust, how to treat it and how to look out for it. Corrosion in aluminium looks very different and is much closer to woodworm. Any defects in the oxide layer no mater how small allow the corrosion to start and the aluminium is oxidised as it eats downwards. As it can not go through the oxide coat above it, it doesn't break through again, the only sign being a white powder which is salt of aluminium which is deposited by the pore. The comes off relatively easily and unless you know what to look for you won't spot it.
http://www.lakesideengineering.com/Elise%20Chassis...
Lotus consider the chassis to have a 8 year life span ( i.e. the length opt the warranty) anything else apparently is a bonus. They consider the chassis to be a non repairable structure end of topic, if the chassis needs repair then you need a new chassis. The exception appears to be when they have to pay for it i.e. the floors, when just gluing over it with a new piece of ali will be fine- i'm guessing just to get them to the 8 year stage when it's no longer their problem. Interestingly Aston martin who use the same chassis technology do repair them by bonding and riveting, but you can't weld the aluminium without weakening the surrounding ali.
Aluminium is resistant to corrosion as long as the oxide layer in intact and it ties time. Lotus happily ignored this in their testing by dipping an intact chassis in salt water and declaring oh that's resistant to corrosion. Their testing is akin to taking a piece of freshly painted steel and dipping in repeatedly into salt water then when it dries out claiming rest won't be a problem for 25 years.
The problem is electrolytic corrosion and although it's been known about for a long time, lotus seemed to have taken minimal efforts to prevent it. The real problem area is the wheel arches, the exposed chassis is hit by grit from the road causing defects in the oxide layer. This is made worse by the stupid decision to use steel wishbones, yes lotus engineering at it's best, it seems everyone else knew it a bad idea except lotus, although it looks like they finally learnt with the evora. Lotus chose to use steel wishbones i can only assume for cost, to stop the electrolytic corrosion they anodised the mounting bobbins but used mild steel shims on the front suspension which they then covered in a substance to prevent the electrolytic corrosion. Unfortunately this coating is about as hard as an HB pencil and is designed with a service life of 500-1000 hours, and the result is that in the abrasive environment of the wheel arch this comes off and they start rusting. When this happens the electrolytic corrosion it just a matter of time.
This could have been prevented by using ali wishbones or even sacrificial metals like in aluminium boats, but for some reason lotus chose not to do this.
We are all used to rust, how to treat it and how to look out for it. Corrosion in aluminium looks very different and is much closer to woodworm. Any defects in the oxide layer no mater how small allow the corrosion to start and the aluminium is oxidised as it eats downwards. As it can not go through the oxide coat above it, it doesn't break through again, the only sign being a white powder which is salt of aluminium which is deposited by the pore. The comes off relatively easily and unless you know what to look for you won't spot it.
http://www.lakesideengineering.com/Elise%20Chassis...
When I had classic cars and bikes,the big problems werent mechanical parts but items like trim, door handles, plastic mouldings etc. I suspect it will be the same with Lotus but with the additional issue that some major components are imports - the engine for example.
Most classics here are old british vehicles and many of the companies making the major bits supplied them elsewhere for a lot of years. The TR engines are an example of this. So there are lots lying around still. Will this be the same with the 2ZZ? I doubt it.
Most classics here are old british vehicles and many of the companies making the major bits supplied them elsewhere for a lot of years. The TR engines are an example of this. So there are lots lying around still. Will this be the same with the 2ZZ? I doubt it.
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