Discussion
Still asking questions which have probably been asked 100`s of times...
Whilst the S2 undoubtedly has a more reliable engine and generally benefits from being better developed, I cannot ignore the fact that the S1 is 100 or so kilograms lighter..less is more and all that.
Is the S1 actually the better drivers car??....and what`s it likely to cost to upgrade the basic engine to 160 or 180hp? The other highly desirable route is to have a Honda conversion.
Whilst the S2 undoubtedly has a more reliable engine and generally benefits from being better developed, I cannot ignore the fact that the S1 is 100 or so kilograms lighter..less is more and all that.
Is the S1 actually the better drivers car??....and what`s it likely to cost to upgrade the basic engine to 160 or 180hp? The other highly desirable route is to have a Honda conversion.
I have had S1 and S2 cars. The S1 is a driver's delight. Even with the 118 bhp engine its a good drive. Early S2's before the Toyota engines and ABS etc were around 800kg or less. I has a S2 111S (160)which was a great car with a few comforts including a good and easy to fit short roof. After my S1 I had a S2 111S with a Honda engine conversion by MSC. This really was a fantastic car. It weighed 805kg and the N/A engine produced 189bhp at the hubs. Easily producing 35mpg (on the road) and with low road tax costs too. Fantastic seemless power from 4000 rpm to in excess of 8000 rpm. Mated to a short shifting 6 speed box it was a true ultimate driving machine. Uprated Ali-bell brakes with RS14 pads provided good stopping power. With the same engine fitted into a S1 then i'm sure your smile after driving it would have to be surgically removed.
The S1 and S2 have identical engines (different ECU though), unless you're talking about the later Toyota engined cars.
S1s are not necessarily that much lighter, either - there was no step change in weight until the Toyota engine was introduced. An early S2 doesn't weigh much more than a late S1, the weight just crept up continuously over the years.
Which is a better driver's car is just down to personal taste. The S1 feels more interactive because it's a bit rawer, but ultimately doesn't handle as well - it's not as accurately damped and doesn't run on tyres designed specifically for the odd weight distribution of the car so it's a bit less benign on the limit. Most S1s (and many S2s) will have aftermarket dampers fitted by now, which obviously changes things rather.
It's perfectly possible to get 180bhp out of a 1.8 K-series, but VHPD engines are often viewed as not being very well suited to road use. You can supercharge the K-series, but it's not that much cheaper than a Honda/Audi/Duratec conversion.
S1s are not necessarily that much lighter, either - there was no step change in weight until the Toyota engine was introduced. An early S2 doesn't weigh much more than a late S1, the weight just crept up continuously over the years.
Which is a better driver's car is just down to personal taste. The S1 feels more interactive because it's a bit rawer, but ultimately doesn't handle as well - it's not as accurately damped and doesn't run on tyres designed specifically for the odd weight distribution of the car so it's a bit less benign on the limit. Most S1s (and many S2s) will have aftermarket dampers fitted by now, which obviously changes things rather.
It's perfectly possible to get 180bhp out of a 1.8 K-series, but VHPD engines are often viewed as not being very well suited to road use. You can supercharge the K-series, but it's not that much cheaper than a Honda/Audi/Duratec conversion.
Edited by kambites on Friday 22 July 10:34
kambites said:
The S1 and S2 have identical engines (different ECU though), unless you're talking about the later Toyota engined cars.
S1s are not necessarily that much lighter, either - there was no step change in weight until the Toyota engine was introduced. An early S2 doesn't weigh much more than a late S1, the weight just crept up continuously over the years.
Which is a better driver's car is just down to personal taste. The S1 feels more interactive because it's a bit rawer, but ultimately doesn't handle as well - it's not as accurately damped and doesn't run on tyres designed specifically for the odd weight distribution of the car so it's a bit less benign on the limit. Most S1s (and many S2s) will have aftermarket dampers fitted by now, which obviously changes things rather.
would pick you up on this bit...S1s are not necessarily that much lighter, either - there was no step change in weight until the Toyota engine was introduced. An early S2 doesn't weigh much more than a late S1, the weight just crept up continuously over the years.
Which is a better driver's car is just down to personal taste. The S1 feels more interactive because it's a bit rawer, but ultimately doesn't handle as well - it's not as accurately damped and doesn't run on tyres designed specifically for the odd weight distribution of the car so it's a bit less benign on the limit. Most S1s (and many S2s) will have aftermarket dampers fitted by now, which obviously changes things rather.
S1's always handled better, S2's came with the silly narrow tyres that murdered not only front grip, but also quite a lot of steering feel...
Weight wise, S1's started at close to 700Kg's but the last of them in 111S trim were more like 760Kg's, S2's started about the same place, and once again, put on weight over time.
S2 Toyota cars are another order of weight all together, starting at some 860Kg's and currently hovering around 900.
The car that has caught my attention is W reg, and looks like a basic 1.8 engine. Where is this likely to be weight wise...i.e. its a later S1 so may have gained some weight??
With the slightly later engines, was the headgasket issue solved?....I was told they originally used plastic cylinder head dowels, which were replaced with steel items to resolve the problem?
With the slightly later engines, was the headgasket issue solved?....I was told they originally used plastic cylinder head dowels, which were replaced with steel items to resolve the problem?
No the later cars are not immune to the head gasket problems and no replacing the dowels wont solve the problem on its own. No-one seems to be able to agree on exactly what needs to be done to solve the head gasket issue, but to be honest if you can't afford to replace the head gasket occasionally, you probably can't afford to run an Elise (it's only about 500 quid to repair). There have been various "improved" gaskets and other related bits made by various different people over the years and which is best seems to depend on the exact state of the engine (specifically the liner heights, how often the head has been skimmed in the past and whether it's porous, etc.).
I'd expect a W-reg S1 to weigh something like 750kg?
I'd expect a W-reg S1 to weigh something like 750kg?
I've got both an S1 111S and an S2 R. They're running different geo settings, which has a marked affect, but I'd say that the S1 feels more nimble and go-kart like - the S2 much, MUCH better put together. If I was after a trackday car and the odd weekend I'd go for the S1 - for more of an everyday car with the odd trackday I'd take the S2
CTE said:
Thanks for your info....I intend to use the car for pottering/hooning around at the weekends, and the occasional trackday. If I go for an S1, then I`d plan to go for a Honda conversion.
If you are using the car for pottering etc and only the occasional track day then I would get an S2. You cant drive fast and safely anywhere on the roads these days, there is just too much traffic about. Try all of the cars you are interested in and then you can make an informed choice. Good luck.Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff