Elise decisions?

[surrey7er]

OK, so (barring any last minute change of heart) I think I am going to take the plunge and get myself an Elise, to replace my 7. Budget is approx £25k.

I currently have 2 trains of thought:

1) get a fairly new car, totally as Lotus intended, hopefully an SC.

2) get an older car (prob an S2), and get it Honda'd (or Audi'd or Duratec'd???) and spend some £ on brakes and suspension and general tidying up.


There are pro's and cons to both approaches, just looking for any pearls of wisdom from you chaps really...

Car is mainly to be for road use, maybe the odd trackday thrown in (3 a year??)

[kambites]

Well a Honda'd car will be lighter and (potentially) more powerful. It will also lack servo assisted brakes, ABS and traction control. Generally the cars got better built as the years went by, so a newer SC would feel better screwed together than an older Honda powered one, and the later cars seem to have better sound deadening.

The last of the improvements to the roof came in in MY04 so if you use an earlier donor, it's more likely to leak.

[Shnozz]

I trust you have seen the Blink converted S2 for sale at Malton in the classifieds at £20k?

And, as much as I want to deflect attention from it whilst I give it consideration, there is also a stunning S1 Exige with Sinclaires Honda conversion for sale at JCT600 Leeds.

In answer to your question, only you can decide if you want a factory car or aftermarket conversion. The latter is hardly an unproven product though and easily insurable etc so very different from the usual aftermarket engine swaps. I would recommend having a drive of both - plus also an Audi engined car if you can. They are all very different IMHO.

[surrey7er]

cheers guys. Just the sort of stuff I need to help me...

I have a test drive of a standard car booked, and have been in a Honda'd car on track as a passenger.

In that car, one (small) thing that worried me was that the rev counter ended at 8k, but the engine revved higher than that, so the driver had to 'guess'. Not sure I'd like that, but dont know if that was just his car...

ref the SCoM car and the JCT600 car, I'm not sure I'd want to buy pre-converted, prob more keen on getting it done myself. I know it costs more and is probably irrational, but it's just the way I am.

One of the things that steers me towards a Honda'd car is the potential for big (reliable?) power, with the well known supercharger route. My 7 has about 400 bhp/ton before I climb into it, and I love that ballistic acceleration. Some of the youtube vids of s'charged elises and exiges are fantastic... The chassis seems to cope admirably with the power...

I've been reading the 'how good is a Honda'd Elise' thread, and the conclusion seems to be 'very, very good indeed!'

so, I guess, my head says newish standard car, my heart says buy an S2, and Honda it till the cows come home...

hmmmmm....

[herebebeasties]

I has exactly this choice to make recently. I've owned a 2001 S2 for about five years and fancied something a bit faster, so for me it was spend money on a conversion of my existing car (I'd have gone for a supercharged Honda conversion) or buy a newer standard SC.

The newer cars don't have as much steering feel as the lighter, older ones (yes, you really can notice the nearly 100kg difference - you notice when your passenger gets out, so that's hardly surprising), but in pretty much every other way the later cars are better, especially with a touring pack (IMO). My previous S2 was a pain on motorways for really long trips (I'm talking 1000km in a day type stuff) due to the comparative lack of soundproofing; if you get a conversion you should get a sixth gear, which will help with that.

It was also difficult to stop quickly on broken surfaces, especially if the traction was unbalanced left/right (think country lanes with dusty/muddy edges) . ABS is actually useful there, much as it pains me to say it, and the system on the later cars is very good - it's extremely unintrusive otherwise.

Quotes I had for insurance on the conversion were significantly more (£500) than the SC, but you may well be different. It was a factor. I ended up going for a 2008 SC. Lots of people on here will poo-poo me and say it just adds yet more weight, but I really like the air-con. Not that I drive it around London much, but when you are stuck in traffic for ages it makes the car bearable (you get an awful lot of heat-soak through the aluminium tub if you're nearly stationary for any length of time, especially on a hot day).

I'd say get a newer SC if it's your only car, but do a conversion if it's your second car - it'll be more fun and raw, and a bit more special. That said, I find 220ish bhp from my SC is plenty fast enough, even if the throttle response isn't as sharp as a standard R (or a conversion, likely).

Note that buying a conversion is cheaper than doing one, but a newer SC will depreciate more than an older car anyway, so it's probably horses for courses there. Probably best off buying a converted car, financially speaking, provided the insurance difference isn't stupid.

Try both.

[The Pits]

Very different cars. The factory sc is probably the most civilised elise whereas the Honda sc is one of the least! The former can be made less refined (in a good way) with a louder pipe. Presumably you can get a quieter pipe on a Honda sc but I've never heard a quiet one!

[noddynitro]

I went from an R400 (owned for about 7 years) to an Elise SC about a year ago. Loved the Caterham and love the Elise, very different cars and both fantastic in their own way.

Went for an SC with touring pack and aircon and find that I drive it way too many miles because its good in all weathers and have got out of it after a 7 hour journey and was fresh as a daisy!

I use to do the same journey in the aeroscreened R400 through rain and sun and always loved the experience and the whole event but you never quite arrived in pristine condition............

Edited by noddynitro on Thursday 19th May 22:16

[surrey7er]

noddynitro said:

I went from an R400 (owned for about 7 years) to an Elise SC about a year ago. Loved the Caterham and love the Elise, very different cars and both fantastic in their own way.

Noddy, please tell me more...

My seven is R400ish in spec (though not a factory car). Have to say, I'm slightly veering towards the SC route this evening (though that may change in a second or two)...

do you find the SC quick enough? the main reason for liking the engine conversion option is that, according to what I've read, you can go to 300 plus horsepower fairly easily, which would make an Elise truly ballistic, like a 200hp+ 7...

From what I can gather, the SC is rather limited in tuning scope, and 220 is about your lot. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

[noddynitro]

I think whatever car you have you will always want more power. Having said that the SC is such a different drive to the R400 and I actually think that its about the right balance for the Elise. There is no (or very little) tuning opportunity for the SC but I knew that when I bought it. I wanted something for longer EU trips and something that SHMBO would be OK going in and it does work for this. Its also great on track, better with some AO48's rather than the stock AD07s , great handling.

The only mod I will do soon is to put on a slightly fruity exhaust, although I don't want to lose the long distance comfort factor.

YES the SC is quick enough, its a totally different sort of experience to the R400 but its an easy car to drive quickly and its easy to get the power down where a 7 would be going sideways, not always a bad thing though :-)

Edited by noddynitro on Thursday 19th May 22:25

[The Pits]

Sc is totally and utterly tuneable. The main limiting factor is the gearbox which is said to have had it's chips at around 260 bhp. Still, that level makes for a very rapid elise. I have a 250bhp 7 and I find my 189bhp Elise rarely lacking for road use. The exige 260's are very quick, even in a straight line.

[TIPPER]

Save some money;

S1, go to Randy and get the suspension/brakes sorted and ask him to do the Honda conversion whilst the car is in.

[surrey7er]

Tipper, I'm not sure that route does save any money (cool as it is!).

My rough man maths:

Decent s1: £11k
Brakes: £1.5k
Suspension: £1k
Honda conversion: £10k
Supercharger: £3k
Fettling (stonechips, alloys, bushes etc): £1k..

Total: £27.5k
Still a bargain for a rocket ship tho!
The s1s I've looked at were starting to get a bit tired inside too, so a refresh might be in order...

This kind of leads one to the Stark Elise...

[Scuffers]

buying an already converted car is always going to be a more economic choice, also, you will be in no doubt about what your getting for your money (as in it's in-front of you!)

Elise SC is not really tunable as such without big work, the std non-intercooled M45 supercharger setup is just not up to it.

Obviously, a Honda converted car is going to have more potential, with off-the-shelf options to 380+Bhp, but it's fair to say, compared to a new SC they are not as refined (although comming from a 7 not sure that's really relevant!).

Last point, not all Honda conversions are the same, it's worth spending some time looking at the long term experiences of them all etc.

[sng45]

noddynitro said:

I think whatever car you have you will always want more power. Having said that the SC is such a different drive to the R400 and I actually think that its about the right balance for the Elise. There is no (or very little) tuning opportunity for the SC but I knew that when I bought it. I wanted something for longer EU trips and something that SHMBO would be OK going in and it does work for this. Its also great on track, better with some AO48's rather than the stock AD07s , great handling.

The only mod I will do soon is to put on a slightly fruity exhaust, although I don't want to lose the long distance comfort factor.

YES the SC is quick enough, its a totally different sort of experience to the R400 but its an easy car to drive quickly and its easy to get the power down where a 7 would be going sideways, not always a bad thing though :-)

Edited by noddynitro on Thursday 19th May 22:25

Interested in your comment re sports exhaust - I've got an SC ( my fifth Elise) and absolutely love it -( just been down to Italy for the Mille Miglia and back over the Alps) and also feel the only thing missing is a bit of exhaust noise ! Amongst other things I have a 911 4S with switchable sports exhaust and the car sounds fantastic with it "activated" - have you got any idea which would be the most suitable exhaust to make it sound interesting but retain "long distance comfort factor" ? - apologies for thread "hijack"

[icepop]

noddynitro said:

I went from an R400 (owned for about 7 years) to an Elise SC about a year ago. Loved the Caterham and love the Elise, very different cars and both fantastic in their own way.

Went for an SC with touring pack and aircon and find that I drive it way too many miles because its good in all weathers and have got out of it after a 7 hour journey and was fresh as a daisy!

I use to do the same journey in the aeroscreened R400 through rain and sun and always loved the experience and the whole event but you never quite arrived in pristine condition............

Edited by noddynitro on Thursday 19th May 22:16

Yep, exactly the same, went from 7 to Elise, and used up my insurance limited mileage allowance, within the first 4 months of ownership. It was then I realised, I'd bought a proper usable car, rather than my, once in a while, rather special, Caterham. Have come to terms with that over the ensuing 4 years, and respect the Elise for what it is, still miss that 7 buzz though.

Go for the SC option, as said, the car being newer, will feel better all round I think IMO. I've pondered the conversion route a few times, but with a cost of around £10k all in, and my car still having about £12 in it, I'd just probably trade up to a 111R or SC model if possible.

[AverageMPH]

You should check out the Lotus Elise SC Type 25 at Peter Smith Sports Cars.

http://www.petersmithsportscars.com/

It's in mint condition and only done 3700 dry miles.

[noddynitro]

Ditto, had to drop my limited mileage policy (5000 miles) within 5 months of ownership and I only use the car for pleasure as I have a company car!

Thats just how good the car is :-)

Exhaust wise I think I will go for a Larini "track system" exhaust as I do track the car and don't want to be excluded from any circuits and want to keep the car pleasurable to drive for long distances.

Edited by noddynitro on Saturday 21st May 12:43

[MrSimba]

I've gone from Vx220 Turbo to Exige 240 to 996 Turbo and now to an Elise SC, the Elise is by far my favourite of them all, obviously lacks the power of the 996 (but also the running costs!!!) is 'softer' than the Exige but it's a road car so better for a little more compliancy

It's also interesting that friends who have been out in it think the Elise 'feels' the fastest of them all, guess it's the 6" off the floor, roof off, 8500rpm screaming supercharged madness!!!

Mines got the Larini Sport exhaust which I found too loud for the first 1000 miles but now its sooted up beautifully and sounds just right, certainly turns heads!

Also the TRD airbox is great improves throttle response and you can actually hear the SC over the Larini!!!

[bordseye]

surrey7er said:

Car is mainly to be for road use, maybe the odd trackday thrown in (3 a year??)

For your sort of use I would get the car as Lotus intended. Sure you could get a car that is nominally quite a bit faster by going S1 and replacing the K with a decent engine, but out on our real world congested roads, how much use will that really be. I have a 111R and half the time I use it I can't even get onto the second cam - if you really want to quickly overtake long lines of traffic then the answer is a bike not a Lotus.

But perhaps more to the point, a converted car is a "special" in the sense that many problems you have will be harder to solve, parts you need may be harder to get, service and repair is specialised as are things like insurance. The car itself will be less refined and less capable of long journeys. All issues which can be overcome if you are willing to make allowances, but dont kid yourself that such a special will be as easy to own as a standard car.

Stand by for lots of converted S1 owners to argue the toss - just use your common sense to decide if they are right or biased.

[Scuffers]

bordseye said:

For your sort of use I would get the car as Lotus intended. Sure you could get a car that is nominally quite a bit faster by going S1 and replacing the K with a decent engine, but out on our real world congested roads, how much use will that really be. I have a 111R and half the time I use it I can't even get onto the second cam - if you really want to quickly overtake long lines of traffic then the answer is a bike not a Lotus.

err... that more because the engine characteristics of the 2ZZ are ste along with a dreadfully ponderous gear change.

if you could manage to accelerate without having to dump 2-3 gears first, you would understand what it should be like.

bordseye said:

But perhaps more to the point, a converted car is a "special" in the sense that many problems you have will be harder to solve, parts you need may be harder to get, service and repair is specialised as are things like insurance. The car itself will be less refined and less capable of long journeys. All issues which can be overcome if you are willing to make allowances, but dont kid yourself that such a special will be as easy to own as a standard car.

your starting to sound a bit "special" yourself.

Yes, there are some people that have this and that done to the point of not only unreliability but borderline un-drivable too, but they are very much in the minority and at the end of the day, that's there choice.

bordseye said:

Stand by for lots of converted S1 owners to argue the toss - just use your common sense to decide if they are right or biased.

Here to help! (quite aside from your blatant bias!).