2.9 V6 Tuning Info
Discussion
Anyone got a link or info where I can look at options on rebuilding and tuning a 2.9 V6?
I want to look at bhp vs cash spent to see what state of tune I should aim for. I would like to achieve about 180 - 200 bhp but keep it road friendly. Might even build one for LPG....
p.s. Have looked at Specialised Engines website but I am trying to decide whether to go carbed or inj e.t.c....
I want to look at bhp vs cash spent to see what state of tune I should aim for. I would like to achieve about 180 - 200 bhp but keep it road friendly. Might even build one for LPG....
p.s. Have looked at Specialised Engines website but I am trying to decide whether to go carbed or inj e.t.c....
Easiest way would be to swap the engine for a cosworth boa from scorpio i have just picked one up for my SE5a, £300 225bhp standard tune. It uses the came block as the 2.9 with twincam heads.
Change the cams for BOB and remove the cats gives you 238 bhp standard.
Alternativly its big valve heads £800, Cam £120.... if you want to keep the standard set up.
Change the cams for BOB and remove the cats gives you 238 bhp standard.
Alternativly its big valve heads £800, Cam £120.... if you want to keep the standard set up.
scotty2 said:
Change the cams for "BOB" ...? Whats BOB?
Just how much bulkhead would I have to move if I went down the 24V route? Mine is a 6b so has the 2.8 fitted.
No idea who BOB is, but this shows the effect you would be looking for.
http://sporting-reliants.com/images/M
By all accounts it was a serious PIA to do, but that has a lot to do with the desire to retain the ECU and autobox: Nigel at Queensberry Road Garage may be willing to share some of the details.
Nick_F said:
No idea who BOB is, but this shows the effect you would be looking for.
http://sporting-reliants.com/images/M
By all accounts it was a serious PIA to do, but that has a lot to do with the desire to retain the ECU and autobox: Nigel at Queensberry Road Garage may be willing to share some of the details.
I spoke to Nigel about that conversion a year or so ago. His comment was something along the lines of "never again" and that it is possible to get the same sort of performance out of a Cologne 2.8 or 2.9 engine as the Cosworth engine and fit an early type A4LD auto box if you want a 4 speed auto.
BOA early scorpio
BOB later,
BOB has YB Cosworth profile cams and a better inlet manifold but the BOA has simpler electrics and is easier to transplant, if you want reliable power the cosworth is a better option than the cologne. TVR's and capris i think push 175, the original intension was for the cosworth engine to develope 300bhp but the gran' chassis couldn't cope so it was detuned to 220 or 205 depending on the year.
Putting the later cams, manifold and decatting the engine gives you 238 ish bhp from a basically stock engine.
Wasn't the 6b designed for the injected engine anyway??? i have seen one fitted by Will Sparrow and it was snug!
>> Edited by autocad on Monday 3rd April 18:17
BOB later,
BOB has YB Cosworth profile cams and a better inlet manifold but the BOA has simpler electrics and is easier to transplant, if you want reliable power the cosworth is a better option than the cologne. TVR's and capris i think push 175, the original intension was for the cosworth engine to develope 300bhp but the gran' chassis couldn't cope so it was detuned to 220 or 205 depending on the year.
Putting the later cams, manifold and decatting the engine gives you 238 ish bhp from a basically stock engine.
Wasn't the 6b designed for the injected engine anyway??? i have seen one fitted by Will Sparrow and it was snug!
>> Edited by autocad on Monday 3rd April 18:17
Any picks anywhere?
This is the engine i'm transplanting, compared to the essex its looks huge!
Just working through the loom at the moment pluged it together and cutting out the bits i dont need, emission control, abs, power stearing, aircon triggers, its not easy!!!!!!
>> Edited by autocad on Sunday 9th April 09:21
This is the engine i'm transplanting, compared to the essex its looks huge!
Just working through the loom at the moment pluged it together and cutting out the bits i dont need, emission control, abs, power stearing, aircon triggers, its not easy!!!!!!
>> Edited by autocad on Sunday 9th April 09:21
Hi, due to many Granadas and Scorpios dying from severe metal rot the Cosworth engine has become the choice for engine swaps. You can pick up a good example for around the 500 quid which makes them attractive for TVR's Capris and such. The early Granada Cosworth has the engine type code of BOA and has a big plenum with Cosworth badges on either side and was rated at 195BHP.
With the introduction of the Bug-eyed Scorpio the power was raised to 205BHP with improved torque and the designation was changed to BOB and is easy to recognise as it has six inlet tracts like an Alfa and a big plastic engine cover with 'Cosworth V6' embossed on it. The later engine came with the A4LDE four speed autobox and has many electronic gizmos attached to it through the ECU so as said the earlier A4LD version is easier for transplants.
For those who desire/prefer a manual box is not so easy due to the torque output of the Cossie which is the reason why Ford mated it to an auto. If you use the old Zodiac 4 speed overdrive box it will last maybe 5 minutes and subsituting the Type 9 Sierra five speed box maybe 10 minutes!!!! The only boxes that will last are the Sierra Cosworth BW T5 or the MT75 found in all Cosworth Granadas after 89 and all Scorpios and many 89 Sierras too.
On checking on the net I found two interesting sites for Scimmie owners contemplating the swap, first is Top Boss who specialist in the Cosworth 24V and have fitted one into a Scimitar and the other is Capri Sport whose site is very interesting and they offer an MT75 box converted for using behind the 24v'er and it's also a hydrulic cluch operation which is vital for a Scimitar as a cable clutch is impossible , another plus point is cost - a good second hand T5 maybe 500-600 pounds and may of had a hard life in a Saph or whatever,plus getting a bellhousing to suit is a poblem/expense and the Caprisport box is around 500 and is converted from a 2.9 or 2.0 4x4 so not hammered and will use the Granada/Scorpio bellhousing. Also the MT75 has the speed sensor that is part of the management system on the 24v Cossie as TVR owners have found and had to connect this to the handbrake !!!
Overall though the 2.9 12v is probably best and easist to tune.....however how about a brand new 4.0 Litre V6 Colonge engine for under 3 grand? Powertorque have some 4Litre Colonge engines as used in the Ranger - same dimensions as the 2.8/2.9 but with OHC valve operation .... choices,choices !!!!
>> Edited by tesser53 on Monday 17th April 06:29
With the introduction of the Bug-eyed Scorpio the power was raised to 205BHP with improved torque and the designation was changed to BOB and is easy to recognise as it has six inlet tracts like an Alfa and a big plastic engine cover with 'Cosworth V6' embossed on it. The later engine came with the A4LDE four speed autobox and has many electronic gizmos attached to it through the ECU so as said the earlier A4LD version is easier for transplants.
For those who desire/prefer a manual box is not so easy due to the torque output of the Cossie which is the reason why Ford mated it to an auto. If you use the old Zodiac 4 speed overdrive box it will last maybe 5 minutes and subsituting the Type 9 Sierra five speed box maybe 10 minutes!!!! The only boxes that will last are the Sierra Cosworth BW T5 or the MT75 found in all Cosworth Granadas after 89 and all Scorpios and many 89 Sierras too.
On checking on the net I found two interesting sites for Scimmie owners contemplating the swap, first is Top Boss who specialist in the Cosworth 24V and have fitted one into a Scimitar and the other is Capri Sport whose site is very interesting and they offer an MT75 box converted for using behind the 24v'er and it's also a hydrulic cluch operation which is vital for a Scimitar as a cable clutch is impossible , another plus point is cost - a good second hand T5 maybe 500-600 pounds and may of had a hard life in a Saph or whatever,plus getting a bellhousing to suit is a poblem/expense and the Caprisport box is around 500 and is converted from a 2.9 or 2.0 4x4 so not hammered and will use the Granada/Scorpio bellhousing. Also the MT75 has the speed sensor that is part of the management system on the 24v Cossie as TVR owners have found and had to connect this to the handbrake !!!
Overall though the 2.9 12v is probably best and easist to tune.....however how about a brand new 4.0 Litre V6 Colonge engine for under 3 grand? Powertorque have some 4Litre Colonge engines as used in the Ranger - same dimensions as the 2.8/2.9 but with OHC valve operation .... choices,choices !!!!
>> Edited by tesser53 on Monday 17th April 06:29
Just to correct the details for that 4.0litre engine - here is the data:-
4.0 Litre Cologne V6 Crate Engine
Production 4.0L, 6 cylinder engine from the Ford Ranger.
205PS @ 5000rpm in standard tune.
9.7:1 compression ratio.
Lightweight cast iron crankcase, aluminium cylinder heads, 2 valves per cylinder, single overhead camshafts, hydraulic roller valve tappets.
Our Price: £2,831.74
Available from PowerTorqueRacing
4.0 Litre Cologne V6 Crate Engine
Production 4.0L, 6 cylinder engine from the Ford Ranger.
205PS @ 5000rpm in standard tune.
9.7:1 compression ratio.
Lightweight cast iron crankcase, aluminium cylinder heads, 2 valves per cylinder, single overhead camshafts, hydraulic roller valve tappets.
Our Price: £2,831.74
Available from PowerTorqueRacing
plasticpig said:
Dont have a link but the man you should speak to is John Wade - 01902 798303 who does performance bits and rebuilds for the Essex and Cologne engines including race engines.
Spot on advice, John will talk the hind leg off a donkey but boy does he know his onions. As for the 24v 2.9 option, i have just bought a 1994 granada cosworth (£500 t&t and in good nick) and can vouch for the engine being leaps and bounds better than the 2.8 i run in a tvr but would i want all that electric wizardry in my scim or tvr? not for a golden pig!!!
Have John tweak your existing motor or imho go for an rv8 engine to keep the high torque characteristics of the essex v6 but with more beef.
The point of using the boa is that it is still a V6 not a V8, the beauty of this v6 is it has perfect primary and secondary balance.
If you are planning the RV8 conversion you still have the electronic wizardry a description I would hesitate to use for any injection system or swap it for a Weber 500 Edelbrock conversion which some consider a retrograde step.
Gear boxes – the T5/6 is used in most American big blocks TVR’s Vipers and there are a surprising amount available, the MT75 2/x4 is a good option, or the later type 9 from either a diesel transit with the shifter relocated or Capri these have double bearings to cope with the additional torque.
If you are planning the RV8 conversion you still have the electronic wizardry a description I would hesitate to use for any injection system or swap it for a Weber 500 Edelbrock conversion which some consider a retrograde step.
Gear boxes – the T5/6 is used in most American big blocks TVR’s Vipers and there are a surprising amount available, the MT75 2/x4 is a good option, or the later type 9 from either a diesel transit with the shifter relocated or Capri these have double bearings to cope with the additional torque.
autocad said:
The point of using the boa is that it is still a V6 not a V8, the beauty of this v6 is it has perfect primary and secondary balance.
not sure what you mean by perfect primary and secondary balance as i'm not an engineering sort but i think the driving style used to get good performance out of the boa engine is not in keeping with scimitar driving, i.e it is a multi valve engine that requires the use of the higher end of the rev range which is totally out of character with the lazy v6's originally fitted to the scim, the rv8 on the other hand is a big lazy engine with loads of power over the full rev range, very similar to an essex v6. the cologne v6 on the other hand (although i only have the fuel injected version as fitted in my tvr 280i) will always suffer from its siamese exhaust arrangement so i'm not sure what can be done (economically) to improve performance although John Wade undoubtedly does. therefore my advise would always be speak to him first as IMO it makes a certain amount of sense to develop your original engine over shoe horning another engine in. just my 2p and i'm always open to being proven incorrect.
cheers
Nick
When the pistons fire they act against each other canceling out the vibration and forces exerted on the engine (in a shallow angle V6). This is aposed to the cross plain V8 that fires +1 giving the burbble, and requireing significant counter weights on the crank to keep the engine in ballance.
I accept your point re the torque but the cossi still produce a significant amount of it. The injection system is almost identical to that on your TVR the only significant differance if the trigger in the dizi is replaced by a crank sensor and the distributor by a coil pack.
A scimitar should have a smooth V6 thats capable of pulling from 10 to 110 in third thats the fun of it, im sure we would agree on that,
>> Edited by autocad on Tuesday 25th April 16:51
I accept your point re the torque but the cossi still produce a significant amount of it. The injection system is almost identical to that on your TVR the only significant differance if the trigger in the dizi is replaced by a crank sensor and the distributor by a coil pack.
A scimitar should have a smooth V6 thats capable of pulling from 10 to 110 in third thats the fun of it, im sure we would agree on that,
>> Edited by autocad on Tuesday 25th April 16:51
autocad said:
When the pistons fire they act against each other canceling out the vibration and forces exerted on the engine (in a shallow angle V6). This is aposed to the cross plain V8 that fires +1 giving the burbble, and requireing significant counter weights on the crank to keep the engine in ballance.
I accept your point re the torque but the cossi still produce a significant amount of it. The injection system is almost identical to that on your TVR the only significant differance if the trigger in the dizi is replaced by a crank sensor and the distributor by a coil pack.
A scimitar should have a smooth V6 thats capable of pulling from 10 to 110 in third thats the fun of it, im sure we would agree on that,
>> Edited by autocad on Tuesday 25th April 16:51
thanks for the technical lesson
I would have thought that the biggest difference between the cossie's injection system and that of the cologne 2.8i was the fact that the cossie is controlled by an ecu and the 2.8i is mechanical fuel injection, so no black box. i agree that a scimitar should have a smooth v6 which is why i had my essex engine fettled by JWD rather than shoving a bigger, more powerful lump in it, but if you really want to change the engine then i stand by my original statement that the rv8 (albeit it has 2 more cylinders) gives a closer match to driving style than the cossie v6 which may have a good torque figure (i dont know it so cant say for sure) but as i drive one daily i can assure you that the torque is not available at low revs as it is in the essex v6/ rv8.
as always my comments are only my opinion and my mind is open to changing if i'm wrong.
autocad said:
204 bhp 207ftlbs torque, my essex is 150bhp and 190ftlbs so its not that far behind. I nearly bought a Tasmin coupe in stead of the scim and thought it had efi ?
no the tasmin is manual k-jetronic fuel injection (a marvelous bit of kit that) and the torque figure for the cossie is much as i would have guessed i.e roughly the same as the bhp.
the essex has more torque than bhp as does the rv8 (efi spec 190bhp 220ftlbs, cant remember what the carbed version is somewhere round 150bhp and 200ftlbs i think) and more importantly the torque is available pretty much anywhere above 1000rpm for both engines, whereas the cossie really needs more revs before the torque kicks in. give me a shout if you want to test drive these cars and then see what you think.
dont get me wrong, i love the cossie engine, i just dont think it has the characteristics that any scim driver is used to. doesn't necessarily mean that it wouldn't work well in a scim, just that you're driving style would have to change markedly.
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