BSR PPC stage 1 boost not holding past 4.5k RPM
Discussion
HI
Can anyone offer any assistance please.
I have just remapped my 2001 95 aero manual.
The car feel a lot stronger up to about 4.5k rpm then seams to run out of puff.
The boost gauge on the dash now moves into the red when fully accelerating and drops back into the yellow as the performance drops after 4.5k rpm
I know this is wrong as I have read some great reviews from people running BSR s1.
Does anyone know what to check as I have very little experience with turbo cars
Can anyone offer any assistance please.
I have just remapped my 2001 95 aero manual.
The car feel a lot stronger up to about 4.5k rpm then seams to run out of puff.
The boost gauge on the dash now moves into the red when fully accelerating and drops back into the yellow as the performance drops after 4.5k rpm
I know this is wrong as I have read some great reviews from people running BSR s1.
Does anyone know what to check as I have very little experience with turbo cars
Update.
Just uploaded standard map onto car and both myself and friend have driven and think the car feels better in standard form, boost holds strong in all gears with no back off, tuned bsr stg 1 is very positive up to 4.5k rpm then boost just drops off.
From what I have read online it's from 4.5k rpm that the bsr tune is ment to come into it own!
Please help if you can
Just uploaded standard map onto car and both myself and friend have driven and think the car feels better in standard form, boost holds strong in all gears with no back off, tuned bsr stg 1 is very positive up to 4.5k rpm then boost just drops off.
From what I have read online it's from 4.5k rpm that the bsr tune is ment to come into it own!
Please help if you can
Bigletch said:
Update.
Just uploaded standard map onto car and both myself and friend have driven and think the car feels better in standard form, boost holds strong in all gears with no back off, tuned bsr stg 1 is very positive up to 4.5k rpm then boost just drops off.
Sounds about right. Just uploaded standard map onto car and both myself and friend have driven and think the car feels better in standard form, boost holds strong in all gears with no back off, tuned bsr stg 1 is very positive up to 4.5k rpm then boost just drops off.
Trionic7 is torque request mapping, not boost request. Also, Trionic will start to back off in WOT where intake and EGT's climb above safe parameters, which is what you are seeing. Also, the 'boost' gauge isn't a real boost measurement, it's an electronic torque request display.
Bigletch said:
From what I have read online it's from 4.5k rpm that the bsr tune is ment to come into it own!
That statement goes against the limitations of what you can do when the hardware of the engine won't support any significant extra tuning by software alone, which is what you're trying to do.
Hi Aeropilot.
Thanks for your absolutly no help reply.
Hello to everyone that has viewed my post and been interested in were there boost might be going..
I have done some considerable digging on saab forums and found the reason for my boost dropping off.
There are two one way valves that get used heavily even under normal boost conditions but when a mild remap is introduced it is not unusual for them to leak and cause the problem I experience on WOT which is boost dropping off.
Now I am not saying areopilot is wrong totally but help was what i was looking for not simply to be told " I told you so"
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p...
I think this link should show what I have done to resolve my issues.
I plan on visiting my friendly saab parts department later today to pick up replacement 1 way valves as not sure myself that a bolt and blocked of pipe is the best solution..
Thanks anyway
Please let me know if this helps anyone. I believe this will make a difference to an Aero runing standard maps with faulty 1 way valves aswell..
ps. Aeropilot- the smiles are for your benifit as after reading your responce I felt SMUG best descibes it...
Thanks for your absolutly no help reply.
Hello to everyone that has viewed my post and been interested in were there boost might be going..
I have done some considerable digging on saab forums and found the reason for my boost dropping off.
There are two one way valves that get used heavily even under normal boost conditions but when a mild remap is introduced it is not unusual for them to leak and cause the problem I experience on WOT which is boost dropping off.
Now I am not saying areopilot is wrong totally but help was what i was looking for not simply to be told " I told you so"
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p...
I think this link should show what I have done to resolve my issues.
I plan on visiting my friendly saab parts department later today to pick up replacement 1 way valves as not sure myself that a bolt and blocked of pipe is the best solution..
Thanks anyway
Please let me know if this helps anyone. I believe this will make a difference to an Aero runing standard maps with faulty 1 way valves aswell..
ps. Aeropilot- the smiles are for your benifit as after reading your responce I felt SMUG best descibes it...
Thanks Aeropilot.
I have had previous experience with DI cassettes ( what tends to happen before they fail is the check engine light comes on, due to engine management counting miss fires)
and currently have the revised di unit in my car.
Getting back to remap's I can't comment on maptun stuff but would say that BSR remap's are very good provided everything on you car is working as should..
I think I will not be tuning any further as have now achieved what I set out to do.
Please let me know if this has been any help to my fellow pistonheaders
I have had previous experience with DI cassettes ( what tends to happen before they fail is the check engine light comes on, due to engine management counting miss fires)
and currently have the revised di unit in my car.
Getting back to remap's I can't comment on maptun stuff but would say that BSR remap's are very good provided everything on you car is working as should..
I think I will not be tuning any further as have now achieved what I set out to do.
Please let me know if this has been any help to my fellow pistonheaders
I have a BSR Stage 1 map on my 2003 Aero. I get a hessitation under high rpm and WOT conditions. changed MAF, DI Rail, BCV, blocked top vac hose. To me, it's as Aeropilot says and the T7 interfering, although I still want to check the wastegate actuator is set and working correctly. If this isn't bleeding off the correct boost, it'll will overboost and cut fuel which might be my problem!
Edited by boolay on Wednesday 19th May 12:46
I don't have a re-map.
I have it on my things to do list.
However.
My 02 Aero hesitated WOT high RPM. Not much, more like a cough, but still noticeable.
Took it for a looooonnnngggg blast yesterday incl some above 140mph charges.
Seems to have cleared a few cobwebs out.
luckily there is a nice stretch of quiet autobahn not more than 15 mins away
I have it on my things to do list.
However.
My 02 Aero hesitated WOT high RPM. Not much, more like a cough, but still noticeable.
Took it for a looooonnnngggg blast yesterday incl some above 140mph charges.
Seems to have cleared a few cobwebs out.
luckily there is a nice stretch of quiet autobahn not more than 15 mins away
Aeropilot, I'm interested in what you have to say. I'm considering a stage 1 remap by T7 Suite - around 400-420Nm in the 2250-4500rpm range. Thing is, I do like the standard map that I can safely use to redline at 6000rpm? (or am I really not safe doing that.) And I know remaps loose out past the 4500rpm mark.
I've came from 9000 stage 1, 2 litre with short gearbox so this 9-5 aero feels slow - but i know what i'd like it to do. I need the car to pass very quickly within a short distance. Generally in the 30-80mph range.
I've came from 9000 stage 1, 2 litre with short gearbox so this 9-5 aero feels slow - but i know what i'd like it to do. I need the car to pass very quickly within a short distance. Generally in the 30-80mph range.
Bigletch said:
but would say that BSR remap's are very good provided everything on you car is working as should..
I've yet to see a 'very good' BSR map on a dyno. Sadly BSR's maps tend to be on the crude side, and they very much play on the claiming highest numbers, most bang for buck sales pitch. But if you're happy then that's all that matters really.Straight6DOHC said:
Aeropilot, I'm interested in what you have to say. I'm considering a stage 1 remap by T7 Suite - around 400-420Nm in the 2250-4500rpm range. Thing is, I do like the standard map that I can safely use to redline at 6000rpm? (or am I really not safe doing that.)
Yes, you're safe doing that with a standard map, and personally I'd stick with the standard map as well, over one from T7 suite.The hardware limitations on the B235R just don't warrant it.
Stage 1 for an Aero should really be what most tuners offer as Stage 3, as only then can you start to get an real extra and safe.....ooooomph from a B235R.
The critical hardware that needs replacing is the intercooler and the cobra intake pipe to the turbo, plus the addition of a 3" downpipe and race cat and 3.5bar FPR and you are looking at a safe to redline allday 280-285hp/420Nm.
right update.
help still needed please.
been in contact with BSR and so far have claimed that there maps are not the problem, they have thousands of happy customers?
They have sugested.
change the DI cassette... it was replaced less than a year ago?
Try new spark plugs... Just fully serviced les than 2 months ago with saab orig plugs..
They then asked if any other modifications have been done? nothing?
What I have replaced now.
Both one way check valves.
APC control valve.
Blow off valve..
The apc valve has made it slightly better but still does not hold boost.
The boost doesnt surge as much but still builds very quickly.
Does anyone think that the actuator might need replaced or adjusted..
Please help starting to wish I had used MAPTUN instead??
It was the PPC unit that sold BSR to me, the abillity to swap anytime...
help still needed please.
been in contact with BSR and so far have claimed that there maps are not the problem, they have thousands of happy customers?
They have sugested.
change the DI cassette... it was replaced less than a year ago?
Try new spark plugs... Just fully serviced les than 2 months ago with saab orig plugs..
They then asked if any other modifications have been done? nothing?
What I have replaced now.
Both one way check valves.
APC control valve.
Blow off valve..
The apc valve has made it slightly better but still does not hold boost.
The boost doesnt surge as much but still builds very quickly.
Does anyone think that the actuator might need replaced or adjusted..
Please help starting to wish I had used MAPTUN instead??
It was the PPC unit that sold BSR to me, the abillity to swap anytime...
Bigletch said:
right update.
help still needed please.
been in contact with BSR and so far have claimed that there maps are not the problem, they have thousands of happy customers?
They have sugested.
change the DI cassette... it was replaced less than a year ago?
Try new spark plugs... Just fully serviced les than 2 months ago with saab orig plugs..
They then asked if any other modifications have been done? nothing?
What I have replaced now.
Both one way check valves.
APC control valve.
Blow off valve..
The apc valve has made it slightly better but still does not hold boost.
The boost doesnt surge as much but still builds very quickly.
Does anyone think that the actuator might need replaced or adjusted..
Sadly......I really wish I didn't have to say......seen it all before, incl the BSR reply.help still needed please.
been in contact with BSR and so far have claimed that there maps are not the problem, they have thousands of happy customers?
They have sugested.
change the DI cassette... it was replaced less than a year ago?
Try new spark plugs... Just fully serviced les than 2 months ago with saab orig plugs..
They then asked if any other modifications have been done? nothing?
What I have replaced now.
Both one way check valves.
APC control valve.
Blow off valve..
The apc valve has made it slightly better but still does not hold boost.
The boost doesnt surge as much but still builds very quickly.
Does anyone think that the actuator might need replaced or adjusted..
In truth, they probably do have many thousands of happy customers....just also several hundred unhappy ones as well, from the threads I've read over the past 10+ years.
However, that's not solving your problem.
A 1 year old DI cassette could fail after a remap.....it's not unknown, but obviously much less likely. But, the issue for me that screams their software and not a mechanical issue with the car, is the fact that when you reload the OEM map, there's no problem, and a failing DI cassette would show itself on a standard map.
But, the wastegate actuator is a possibility, and it's very much worth checking base boost is spot on as well, before you take any further action.
Bigletch said:
Please help starting to wish I had used MAPTUN instead??
It was the PPC unit that sold BSR to me, the abillity to swap anytime...
Err......you obviously didn't realise that Maptun remaps come with an identical type (actually has more functions) of upload/reload device to the BSR PPC ....... It was the PPC unit that sold BSR to me, the abillity to swap anytime...
Bigletch said:
Hi Aeropilot..
Is the standard actuator easily adjusted or do i need special tools
I have been doing some research and from what I have read about 2mm of movement will not be far of base boast.
Would a remap which would rase the max boost psi mean the actuator would need adjusted?
I don't believe you need any special tools.....not done it myself though.Is the standard actuator easily adjusted or do i need special tools
I have been doing some research and from what I have read about 2mm of movement will not be far of base boast.
Would a remap which would rase the max boost psi mean the actuator would need adjusted?
Not sure on whether it would for definate. It could if the boost request is significantly higher, which is a possibilty with the more crude type of BSR (and they arn't alone in doing this) mapping, which does tend to produce more boost rather than the smoother mapping style of Maptun which simulates the OEM mapping of T7 which maximises power/torque with the minimal required boost.
just dropped someone off from work and been out in the car.
things seem different, the car is running a lot better.
when i changed the apc valve i retuned at the same time.
not sure if the ecu needed to re-calabrate but there is a definate improvement.
one big thing is there appears to not be the same volume of hiss or escaping air as turbo spoils up.
Now the boost holds into the red on the dash all the way up to about 5k then drops back to just the start of the red before falling back into the yellow just before the red line..
On the saab scene forum it is explained that out of the 3 pipes on the apc you should be able to blow throw 2 ( cant remember the exact 2 ) and if you cant brake cleaning fluid can be used to fix it.
I am now considering remapping to standard to see if the faulty apc valve might have been robbing the car of power before?
I still think a slight adjustment or perhaps replacing the actuator would improve thing furter?
Anyway I will let you all know if standard map shows a performance increase when i do it tommorrow..
things seem different, the car is running a lot better.
when i changed the apc valve i retuned at the same time.
not sure if the ecu needed to re-calabrate but there is a definate improvement.
one big thing is there appears to not be the same volume of hiss or escaping air as turbo spoils up.
Now the boost holds into the red on the dash all the way up to about 5k then drops back to just the start of the red before falling back into the yellow just before the red line..
On the saab scene forum it is explained that out of the 3 pipes on the apc you should be able to blow throw 2 ( cant remember the exact 2 ) and if you cant brake cleaning fluid can be used to fix it.
I am now considering remapping to standard to see if the faulty apc valve might have been robbing the car of power before?
I still think a slight adjustment or perhaps replacing the actuator would improve thing furter?
Anyway I will let you all know if standard map shows a performance increase when i do it tommorrow..
Must have been a blip?
Back to normal, car feels rapid up to about 4.5k rpm then just dies.(makes overtaking difficult/dangerous)
Think the only way to sort out this is to put the car on a rolling road, but sadly a new business venture has put an end to this quest just now, so car is back to standard.
The new APC valve has made a difference in standard form, with the car boosting a little stronger so the £27 spent to replace was not a waste of money..
Great car in standard form dont know why I thought a remap was needed?
Will still try a rolling road session but need to start earning money before I try again.
Thanks for all your help
Back to normal, car feels rapid up to about 4.5k rpm then just dies.(makes overtaking difficult/dangerous)
Think the only way to sort out this is to put the car on a rolling road, but sadly a new business venture has put an end to this quest just now, so car is back to standard.
The new APC valve has made a difference in standard form, with the car boosting a little stronger so the £27 spent to replace was not a waste of money..
Great car in standard form dont know why I thought a remap was needed?
Will still try a rolling road session but need to start earning money before I try again.
Thanks for all your help
POsted on other thread, but just for good measure...
OK, well after spending a lot of money with my local Saab specialist just yesterday, I have now removed my BSR PPC Stage 1 map, and about to launch a refund procedure with BSR, as it was causing my engine to overboost and 'pink'. Everything was changed to overcome the problem, but after they got the car running perfectly (all tech 2 figures spot on, and matching what was being required by the ecu, and what was being delivered by the engine) without the map, they could not get it to run well with the map on.
My advice is to avoid this product.
OK, well after spending a lot of money with my local Saab specialist just yesterday, I have now removed my BSR PPC Stage 1 map, and about to launch a refund procedure with BSR, as it was causing my engine to overboost and 'pink'. Everything was changed to overcome the problem, but after they got the car running perfectly (all tech 2 figures spot on, and matching what was being required by the ecu, and what was being delivered by the engine) without the map, they could not get it to run well with the map on.
My advice is to avoid this product.
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