how do saab 95's compare to the germans?
Discussion
Hi, am looking for ideas for a new fast family barge which can tow my race car. I've just been mugged by my old Audi S8 and have been tempted by a BMW M5(e39) but suspect I will be emptying my wallet yet again. I have owned a SAAB 9000 Aero a few years ago which was a great car (even greater when Abbot Racing did some stuff to it!) and wondered how the 95 Aero compares to the 9000 or german build quality.
Am I going to be disappointed with a 95 - wobbly car with bits rattling?
Am I going to be disappointed with a 95 - wobbly car with bits rattling?
Difficult one, really as I’ve never seen the Saab as being rival in that sort of company anyway, it was quarter to half the price of either the A8 or M5 when new.
However, they are bargain fast barge’s at the moment, and they really make excellent tow cars with that huge torque.
I had a 9000 Aero manual before my 9-5 Aero auto and in all honesty I much prefer the 9-5 Aero to the 9000 Aero. I will admit that the build quality isn’t quite up to that of what the 9000 was, but it’s not shocking like the 9-3 is.
When I mean build quality, it’s not so much the actual screwing together that’s not as good, more the level of detailing and some of the components isn’t what it was with the 9000.
But…..it’s a much better car to drive than the 9000, better chassis, better steering, better brakes, more economical, more front seat legroom etc.
The 5-speed auto’s from 02 onwards (Sentronic from 03 onwards) is way better than the manual gearbox cars, and the engine while not feeling so ‘manic’ as the 9000 Aero, is a smoother one, and the performance is more deceptive than the old 9000. I certainly have to watch the speedo much more in the 9-5 than I did in the 9000.
I had the full Hirsch suspension, wheels and brakes fitted to my Aero which has turned the car into a much more enjoyable one, with a far better level of ride comfort, as well as grip and stopping power.
However, they are bargain fast barge’s at the moment, and they really make excellent tow cars with that huge torque.
I had a 9000 Aero manual before my 9-5 Aero auto and in all honesty I much prefer the 9-5 Aero to the 9000 Aero. I will admit that the build quality isn’t quite up to that of what the 9000 was, but it’s not shocking like the 9-3 is.
When I mean build quality, it’s not so much the actual screwing together that’s not as good, more the level of detailing and some of the components isn’t what it was with the 9000.
But…..it’s a much better car to drive than the 9000, better chassis, better steering, better brakes, more economical, more front seat legroom etc.
The 5-speed auto’s from 02 onwards (Sentronic from 03 onwards) is way better than the manual gearbox cars, and the engine while not feeling so ‘manic’ as the 9000 Aero, is a smoother one, and the performance is more deceptive than the old 9000. I certainly have to watch the speedo much more in the 9-5 than I did in the 9000.
I had the full Hirsch suspension, wheels and brakes fitted to my Aero which has turned the car into a much more enjoyable one, with a far better level of ride comfort, as well as grip and stopping power.
I've owned a 9-5 2.3 Turbo SE Estate Auto for 7 tears now, adding 180k miles to the original 7k. Whilst generally I think that it is fantastic car, it is IMO a crap towcar. I've towed cars or trailers, caravans and small trailers and my issues are as follows:-
1) Being a Petrol Turbo engine it's low compresson and therefore actually quite gutless off boost - therefore it's difficult until boost comes in.
2) I reckon the brakes are marginal, even with a braked trailer
3) Fuel economy goes through the floor, as with the Auto it seems permanently in the wrong gear! I would expect to half the miles to the gallon that I do when not towing. ie journey on M-way with no trailer behind at 60mph - 37+mpg, with a trailer 18-19mpg.
We just bought a Shogun for more serious towing duty and as a towcar it's fabulous, but I wouldn't want to do 500+ miles a day in it.
If you're going for petrol I'd go for no turbo and more cc
davidy
1) Being a Petrol Turbo engine it's low compresson and therefore actually quite gutless off boost - therefore it's difficult until boost comes in.
2) I reckon the brakes are marginal, even with a braked trailer
3) Fuel economy goes through the floor, as with the Auto it seems permanently in the wrong gear! I would expect to half the miles to the gallon that I do when not towing. ie journey on M-way with no trailer behind at 60mph - 37+mpg, with a trailer 18-19mpg.
We just bought a Shogun for more serious towing duty and as a towcar it's fabulous, but I wouldn't want to do 500+ miles a day in it.
If you're going for petrol I'd go for no turbo and more cc
davidy
DavidY said:
I've owned a 9-5 2.3 Turbo SE Estate Auto for 7 tears now, adding 180k miles to the original 7k. Whilst generally I think that it is fantastic car, it is IMO a crap towcar. I've towed cars or trailers, caravans and small trailers and my issues are as follows:-
1) Being a Petrol Turbo engine it's low compresson and therefore actually quite gutless off boost - therefore it's difficult until boost comes in.
2) I reckon the brakes are marginal, even with a braked trailer
3) Fuel economy goes through the floor, as with the Auto it seems permanently in the wrong gear! I would expect to half the miles to the gallon that I do when not towing. ie journey on M-way with no trailer behind at 60mph - 37+mpg, with a trailer 18-19mpg.
We just bought a Shogun for more serious towing duty and as a towcar it's fabulous, but I wouldn't want to do 500+ miles a day in it.
If you're going for petrol I'd go for no turbo and more cc
davidy
David, to be fair, the OP was talking about a 9-5 Aero, which you can't really compare with your SE...it's like comparing chalk and cheese.1) Being a Petrol Turbo engine it's low compresson and therefore actually quite gutless off boost - therefore it's difficult until boost comes in.
2) I reckon the brakes are marginal, even with a braked trailer
3) Fuel economy goes through the floor, as with the Auto it seems permanently in the wrong gear! I would expect to half the miles to the gallon that I do when not towing. ie journey on M-way with no trailer behind at 60mph - 37+mpg, with a trailer 18-19mpg.
We just bought a Shogun for more serious towing duty and as a towcar it's fabulous, but I wouldn't want to do 500+ miles a day in it.
If you're going for petrol I'd go for no turbo and more cc
davidy
You wouldn't have any of the issues' you had with an Aero, as it's got sooooooo much more torque, and it's got bigger brakes and especially if going for a facelift on car with the much much better 5-speed auto, which has that extra gear so you don't have 'always in the wrong gear' feeling.
I know several people that tow with a 02-on Aero estate auto, incl one guy who tows a Porsche race car all over Europe, and he reckons it's the best tow car he's had, and he's had a few.
Aeropilot
I understand the differences between the aero and the regular 2.3 turbo, but surely off boost both will just be low compression 2.3 petrol engines.
And another thing, its FWD, so get it on a slight incline on wet grass with a aheavy trailer and yo are not going anywhere, I've experienced this (and the tow bar weight loading was not excessive)
Your friend obviously rates the 9-5 as a tow car, but I'm afarid I don't, my previous Volvo 960 and the Shogun are much better tow cars.
Edited to say that I've also had an A8, when it worked it was great, but I reckon the Saab is just as comfortable and has a better climate control system.
davidy
I understand the differences between the aero and the regular 2.3 turbo, but surely off boost both will just be low compression 2.3 petrol engines.
And another thing, its FWD, so get it on a slight incline on wet grass with a aheavy trailer and yo are not going anywhere, I've experienced this (and the tow bar weight loading was not excessive)
Your friend obviously rates the 9-5 as a tow car, but I'm afarid I don't, my previous Volvo 960 and the Shogun are much better tow cars.
Edited to say that I've also had an A8, when it worked it was great, but I reckon the Saab is just as comfortable and has a better climate control system.
davidy
Edited by DavidY on Saturday 26th July 20:40
Edited by DavidY on Saturday 26th July 20:41
DavidY said:
I understand the differences between the aero and the regular 2.3 turbo, but surely off boost both will just be low compression 2.3 petrol engines.
With boost generation by Trionic from so low down, and so seemless, I'm struggling to understand what you mean by off-boost TBH. My Aero has shed loads of torque everywhere. Don't dissagree about the fwd bit if you are on wet grass, and the optional load-compensating suspension for the estates does make a difference with weight distribution.
Thanks chaps, thats quite helpful 
While I know the 95 Aero is a rapid and nice place to be, my main concern was given it's mostly sadly now made of bits of Vauxhall how it stacked up against other 'premium' brands.
While I know the 95 Aero is a rapid and nice place to be, my main concern was given it's mostly sadly now made of bits of Vauxhall how it stacked up against other 'premium' brands.DavidY said:
Aeropilot
And another thing, its FWD, so get it on a slight incline on wet grass with a aheavy trailer and yo are not going anywhere, I've experienced this (and the tow bar weight loading was not excessive)
Fortunatly i'm only towing 800kg of Fiesta and most racing paddocks are tarmac now, so not too worried about getting stuck on the grass And another thing, its FWD, so get it on a slight incline on wet grass with a aheavy trailer and yo are not going anywhere, I've experienced this (and the tow bar weight loading was not excessive)
drmotorsport said:
While I know the 95 Aero is a rapid and nice place to be, my main concern was given it's mostly sadly now made of bits of Vauxhall how it stacked up against other 'premium' brands.
It isn't made of Vauxhall bits to be fair. It shares a few things like track control arms and braking hardware components, but the suspension is to Saabs spec. More precisley it is still very much a Saab and offers a component quality as good as anything the German manufacturers have budgeted down to in this price bracket. Yes the block is Opel Ascona based, but GM decided to move Saab engine development technology into Germany so ALL GM vehicles could benefit from Saab. This is cited as the main reasoning for GM deciding against selling off Saab.Believe me, I'm much more a lover of Saab 900/9000 when it comes to ease of maintenance at any level, and I believe the component quality to be ever so slightly higher for the last generation of 'real' Saabs (pre GM) but the 9-5, especially the Aero, ain't a bad bus. Yes they do have some issues, electronic throttles, turbos, SID units, front wheel bearings, but I'm the wrong person to ask here as I fix them everday. Whilst one customer has a perfectly reliable car that sees regular service and annual MOT and returning reliable high mileage, there's always another customer who's unfortunate enough to give the same attention for less mileage and suffer problems. Majority vote says high end models, later years, essential solid service history, you'll love it. Best buy (and appropriate for towing) - 9-5 Aero estate with all the options. Get the removable tow bar too.
Dr Motorspurt, I have gone in the opposite direction, quick potted history:
Saab 900
9-3 Cabrio
9-5 Aero Saloon
E39 M5
9-5 Aero Estate
D3 Audi A8 4.2
What's missing out of that lot is the list of TVRs that runs alongside - Before the M5, I ran a Chimaera and then a Cerbera, only selling out and going teutonic when my first kid came along... To conclude, I currently have the 9-5 Aero Estate, A8, Range Rover, and another Chimaera... general purpose hack, work hack, family hack, and funmobile in that order!
In a nutshell, the Aero's are quite phenomenal cars, and the reason I returned to one, even after the M5, is quite simple - find another car that'll carry 5, a roof load, has an enormous boot and the most comfortable seats known to man, that is quicker 50-70 than a 911, gets to 60 in 6.5 seconds AND STILL returns 36mpg on a motorway run.... it's a tricky one. Cap it off with them being pretty much bulletproof, and you're on to a winner. My current estate has nearly 160,000 on the clock, is still on its original exhaust, original clutch (!!!), and original rear discs - the only major work it has needed is new front discs at 120k, and new springs and dampers at 134k (£200 and £600 respectively....) My previous one had 110k on when I sold it, and was on original everything. Cap it off with them being cheap to buy and insure and you're on to a winner. Yes there is a degree of torque-steer, but it's not half as bad as reviews / word of mouth would make out - you're putting 400nm of torque through the front wheels, of course they're going to wobble a little. But with very little practice you'll learn to enjoy what is actually very secure and tidy handling - especially in dodgy weather - forget not that they're built for Swedish winters, so when every other sod has given up because there's an 1/8 of an inch of snow on the ground, you plough on regardless. Stonking overtaking power from all that torque makes progress very rapid but easy, lazy and accessible.
The M5 was a totally different beast entirely. I decided having had to forego my Cerbera that I wanted a "sensible" family car, but it still had to have lots of power - enter the E39 with its 4.9litre 400bhp V8. What. A. Monster. No 2 ton saloon car has any right to stop, go, or more to the point, handle like that. Sadly for me it was just a little too "over engineered" and dull by comparison to the TVRs, so I tired of it fairly quickly. The V8 tended to drink rather a lot, with a motorway run managing to creep towards 24mpg if you were lucky, the average over a mixed tankful being closer to 18mpg. I also found myself stung by the dealers - I fell for the hype that only a BMW main dealer could look after an M-car. However, having been charged £200 for them to look at the car and then being presented with a £3500 bill for them to fix everything that was wrong with it, I returned to my trusted Indy who has looked after all of my other cars (Horizon Motorsport in Birmingham). The went over the car with a fine toothcomb and concurred that the listed problems ("broken" suspension, engine oil leaks, antiroll bars) were indeed at fault, and set about fixing it. £360 later, I had a new £15 bracket on my antiroll bar, the "broken" suspension had been geo'd and now had no problems, and they had tightend all the loose bolts on the engine seals and now it didn't leak oil..... needless to say, BMW didn't get my custom any longer!
To be fair, I never had any problems with it, (12 months, 12000 miles), though the whole VANOS thing was a major worry - read any M-power forum and there are countless tales of the dual VANOS failing and monstrous bills to fix it... Also, the denizens of such forums will tell you to get the BMW warranty, but then also tell of warranty refusals - I decided to save a couple of thousand buying a car out of warranty, thinking I would then also save by getting the work done by my Indy, with only services done at BMW. After the above experience of them trying to charge me for minimal work, all of it was then done by the Indy.
So to conclude:
9-5 - reliable, honest, economical, true "working" car - it'll take whatever you throw at it, and cheap to insure and run.
M5 - stunningly quick, bit of a drink problem, always a worry of big bills (though not in my experience). Painful insurance.
Hope that helps a bit! If you can afford it, the M5 is a monster, but for a workaday hack, I'd take the 9-5 every time.
Saab 900
9-3 Cabrio
9-5 Aero Saloon
E39 M5
9-5 Aero Estate
D3 Audi A8 4.2
What's missing out of that lot is the list of TVRs that runs alongside - Before the M5, I ran a Chimaera and then a Cerbera, only selling out and going teutonic when my first kid came along... To conclude, I currently have the 9-5 Aero Estate, A8, Range Rover, and another Chimaera... general purpose hack, work hack, family hack, and funmobile in that order!
In a nutshell, the Aero's are quite phenomenal cars, and the reason I returned to one, even after the M5, is quite simple - find another car that'll carry 5, a roof load, has an enormous boot and the most comfortable seats known to man, that is quicker 50-70 than a 911, gets to 60 in 6.5 seconds AND STILL returns 36mpg on a motorway run.... it's a tricky one. Cap it off with them being pretty much bulletproof, and you're on to a winner. My current estate has nearly 160,000 on the clock, is still on its original exhaust, original clutch (!!!), and original rear discs - the only major work it has needed is new front discs at 120k, and new springs and dampers at 134k (£200 and £600 respectively....) My previous one had 110k on when I sold it, and was on original everything. Cap it off with them being cheap to buy and insure and you're on to a winner. Yes there is a degree of torque-steer, but it's not half as bad as reviews / word of mouth would make out - you're putting 400nm of torque through the front wheels, of course they're going to wobble a little. But with very little practice you'll learn to enjoy what is actually very secure and tidy handling - especially in dodgy weather - forget not that they're built for Swedish winters, so when every other sod has given up because there's an 1/8 of an inch of snow on the ground, you plough on regardless. Stonking overtaking power from all that torque makes progress very rapid but easy, lazy and accessible.
The M5 was a totally different beast entirely. I decided having had to forego my Cerbera that I wanted a "sensible" family car, but it still had to have lots of power - enter the E39 with its 4.9litre 400bhp V8. What. A. Monster. No 2 ton saloon car has any right to stop, go, or more to the point, handle like that. Sadly for me it was just a little too "over engineered" and dull by comparison to the TVRs, so I tired of it fairly quickly. The V8 tended to drink rather a lot, with a motorway run managing to creep towards 24mpg if you were lucky, the average over a mixed tankful being closer to 18mpg. I also found myself stung by the dealers - I fell for the hype that only a BMW main dealer could look after an M-car. However, having been charged £200 for them to look at the car and then being presented with a £3500 bill for them to fix everything that was wrong with it, I returned to my trusted Indy who has looked after all of my other cars (Horizon Motorsport in Birmingham). The went over the car with a fine toothcomb and concurred that the listed problems ("broken" suspension, engine oil leaks, antiroll bars) were indeed at fault, and set about fixing it. £360 later, I had a new £15 bracket on my antiroll bar, the "broken" suspension had been geo'd and now had no problems, and they had tightend all the loose bolts on the engine seals and now it didn't leak oil..... needless to say, BMW didn't get my custom any longer!
To be fair, I never had any problems with it, (12 months, 12000 miles), though the whole VANOS thing was a major worry - read any M-power forum and there are countless tales of the dual VANOS failing and monstrous bills to fix it... Also, the denizens of such forums will tell you to get the BMW warranty, but then also tell of warranty refusals - I decided to save a couple of thousand buying a car out of warranty, thinking I would then also save by getting the work done by my Indy, with only services done at BMW. After the above experience of them trying to charge me for minimal work, all of it was then done by the Indy.
So to conclude:
9-5 - reliable, honest, economical, true "working" car - it'll take whatever you throw at it, and cheap to insure and run.
M5 - stunningly quick, bit of a drink problem, always a worry of big bills (though not in my experience). Painful insurance.
Hope that helps a bit! If you can afford it, the M5 is a monster, but for a workaday hack, I'd take the 9-5 every time.
No worries Dominic, glad to help. As you saw, I've had a few Saabs over the years - in fact I missed off my wife's 2004 9-3 Aero cab too.... which was a complete lemon, but all the rest have been fab fast but cheap motoring, and yes, the fact it's a bit different has a definite appeal.
When I bought my original 900, I had just started my own business. At the time I was looking rather young, and turning up to clients I needed to look suitably successful without ramming it down their throats. I was amazed at the recption the Saabs got - usually mutters of quiet appreciation both for the car, and for not going for de rigeur 3-series, A4 or Merc.
When I bought my original 900, I had just started my own business. At the time I was looking rather young, and turning up to clients I needed to look suitably successful without ramming it down their throats. I was amazed at the recption the Saabs got - usually mutters of quiet appreciation both for the car, and for not going for de rigeur 3-series, A4 or Merc.
I had a Saab 95 a few year ago and really liked it. I went to look at a 3 series BMW but the salesman was so up himself I could not bring myself to buy one. I was passing a Saab Garage and ended up popping in and had the 95.
In total I have had 3x Saabs, I currently have a 93 1.9TDi Sport Wagon which is nice but not as big as the 95. I understand that their will soon be a whole new 95 which should be a whole step forward for the model.. So there should be some good deals on the current 95. I just don't like the stickon fake chrome stips on the head lights. Why they do that for the UK market I don't know
In total I have had 3x Saabs, I currently have a 93 1.9TDi Sport Wagon which is nice but not as big as the 95. I understand that their will soon be a whole new 95 which should be a whole step forward for the model.. So there should be some good deals on the current 95. I just don't like the stickon fake chrome stips on the head lights. Why they do that for the UK market I don't know
I wonder what it looks like if you colour the strips the same as the car?
oh, and a fully Maptun upgraded 9-5 Aero is a car that will put a grin on your face from ear to ear. Its very different to the RWD German saloons but the transformation from smooth cruise to rushing, headlong, spine-compressing turbo torque is something a remapped Saab does uniquely well.
oh, and a fully Maptun upgraded 9-5 Aero is a car that will put a grin on your face from ear to ear. Its very different to the RWD German saloons but the transformation from smooth cruise to rushing, headlong, spine-compressing turbo torque is something a remapped Saab does uniquely well.
Wadeski said:
I wonder what it looks like if you colour the strips the same as the car?
oh, and a fully Maptun upgraded 9-5 Aero is a car that will put a grin on your face from ear to ear. Its very different to the RWD German saloons but the transformation from smooth cruise to rushing, headlong, spine-compressing turbo torque is something a remapped Saab does uniquely well.
Hear hear. The accsessible torque makes progress so swift and easy...oh, and a fully Maptun upgraded 9-5 Aero is a car that will put a grin on your face from ear to ear. Its very different to the RWD German saloons but the transformation from smooth cruise to rushing, headlong, spine-compressing turbo torque is something a remapped Saab does uniquely well.
Wadeski said:
I wonder what it looks like if you colour the strips the same as the car?
oh, and a fully Maptun upgraded 9-5 Aero is a car that will put a grin on your face from ear to ear. Its very different to the RWD German saloons but the transformation from smooth cruise to rushing, headlong, spine-compressing turbo torque is something a remapped Saab does uniquely well.
I was wondering why people didn't colour the "Edna strips" to make the body too!oh, and a fully Maptun upgraded 9-5 Aero is a car that will put a grin on your face from ear to ear. Its very different to the RWD German saloons but the transformation from smooth cruise to rushing, headlong, spine-compressing turbo torque is something a remapped Saab does uniquely well.
If you think a Maptuned 9-5 Aero is fun, imagine what my "classic" 9-3 Aero conv with Maptun Stage three (270bhp/370Nm) - which is much lighter - feels like
Prof Beard said:
Wadeski said:
I wonder what it looks like if you colour the strips the same as the car?
oh, and a fully Maptun upgraded 9-5 Aero is a car that will put a grin on your face from ear to ear. Its very different to the RWD German saloons but the transformation from smooth cruise to rushing, headlong, spine-compressing turbo torque is something a remapped Saab does uniquely well.
I was wondering why people didn't colour the "Edna strips" to make the body too!oh, and a fully Maptun upgraded 9-5 Aero is a car that will put a grin on your face from ear to ear. Its very different to the RWD German saloons but the transformation from smooth cruise to rushing, headlong, spine-compressing turbo torque is something a remapped Saab does uniquely well.
If you think a Maptuned 9-5 Aero is fun, imagine what my "classic" 9-3 Aero conv with Maptun Stage three (270bhp/370Nm) - which is much lighter - feels like
RedLeicester said:
Prof Beard said:
Wadeski said:
I wonder what it looks like if you colour the strips the same as the car?
oh, and a fully Maptun upgraded 9-5 Aero is a car that will put a grin on your face from ear to ear. Its very different to the RWD German saloons but the transformation from smooth cruise to rushing, headlong, spine-compressing turbo torque is something a remapped Saab does uniquely well.
I was wondering why people didn't colour the "Edna strips" to make the body too!oh, and a fully Maptun upgraded 9-5 Aero is a car that will put a grin on your face from ear to ear. Its very different to the RWD German saloons but the transformation from smooth cruise to rushing, headlong, spine-compressing turbo torque is something a remapped Saab does uniquely well.
If you think a Maptuned 9-5 Aero is fun, imagine what my "classic" 9-3 Aero conv with Maptun Stage three (270bhp/370Nm) - which is much lighter - feels like
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