9000 Aero Tuning

[D_T_W]

Right, for starters i should never have picked up a copy of Practical Performance Car at the weekend. This could get expensive!!

Basically, going from the PPC article, 400bhp is possible for about £3k, not including the car. However, one cannot help but look at the Maptun website and be amazed at the stage 7 package.

So my questions are as follows

Can you make them handle and stop extremely well? Obvious ones are aftermarket brakes, new suspension and a Quaife diff
Just how reliable are they with the boost cranked up. I understand the bottom end is good for 500 bhp, but are we talking everyday driver reliable?
Just how difficult is it to drive with 350+bhp?

My brother has a bog standard Aero, and i know it's a quick car, and with a rolling start i reckon it would give me M5 a bit of a fright upto big speeds. However, the M5 requires huge amounts of cash to keep right, is a tempremental cow 90% of the time, and does 15mpg everywhere no matter how it's driven (at least it doesn't need super unleaded!). Is the Saab as bombproof as i'm lead to believe?

Go on, shatter my illiusion that i could have a reliable 400bhp car that can be used everyday, that handles and stops amazingly and will cosset my chubby rear on long journeys as well as showing a clean pair of heels to most things on the road, all for less than £8k. Or tell me where i can get one

[Prof Beard]

The person to contact about tuning 9000s is Ylee Coyote:


http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/profile.asp?mem...

[D_T_W]

Prof Beard said:

The person to contact about tuning 9000s is Ylee Coyote:


http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/profile.asp?mem...

Cheers, i knew there was somebody on here with a tuned Aero, just couldn't remember who it was!!

[aeropilot]

D_T_W said:

Go on, shatter my illiusion that i could have a reliable 400bhp car that can be used everyday, that handles and stops amazingly and will cosset my chubby rear on long journeys as well as showing a clean pair of heels to most things on the road, all for less than £8k. Or tell me where i can get one

I'll shatter the illusion a bit.......it's called the gearbox.

Much over 300hp and more significantly the enormous 500Nm+ torque of a Stage 4 and above 9k Aero engine, the gearbox life can be measured in months. It's the BIG weakspot on these cars.

IIRC, one of the Maptun founders, used to have a supply of rebuilt gearboxes in the workshop and had to change them every few months on his 500+hp 9k Aero.

Maptun have finally got Quaife to design/build a suitably strong enough 6-speed gearset now, but that you'll need the same budget for that and the diff as you will need for the engine......
As mentioned, Ylee is yer man, and IIRC his Aero monster is shortly getting one of the first of these gearboxes.

Have a read of this thread on UKSaabs.

http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/UKS/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19579 

Edited by aeropilot on Thursday 13th March 20:32

[Prof Beard]

aeropilot said:

D_T_W said:

Go on, shatter my illiusion that i could have a reliable 400bhp car that can be used everyday, that handles and stops amazingly and will cosset my chubby rear on long journeys as well as showing a clean pair of heels to most things on the road, all for less than £8k. Or tell me where i can get one

I'll shatter the illusion a bit.......it's called the gearbox.

Much over 300hp and more significantly the enormous 500Nm+ torque of a Stage 4 and above 9k Aero engine, the gearbox life can be measured in months. It's the BIG weakspot on these cars.

IIRC, one of the Maptun founders, used to have a supply of rebuilt gearboxes in the workshop and had to change them every few months on his 500+hp 9k Aero.

Maptun have finally got Quaife to design/build a suitably strong enough 6-speed gearset now, but that you'll need the same budget for that and the diff as you will need for the engine......
As mentioned, Ylee is yer man, and IIRC his Aero monster is shortly getting one of the first of these gearboxes.

Have a read of this thread on UKSaabs.

http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/UKS/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19579 

There is a compromise, MapTun can do mappings which limit torque to within drivetrain tolerances but deliver bhp (For example, they do that with their 9-3 mappings for people with automatics where they rate the maximum for the gearbox at 400Nm). Not the complete package but still a lot of oomph... My 9-3 Auto has a Stage 3 MapTun with 270bhp and 370Nm. So far its enough for me (but I've not had the mods long )

[aeropilot]

Prof Beard said:

aeropilot said:

D_T_W said:

Go on, shatter my illiusion that i could have a reliable 400bhp car that can be used everyday, that handles and stops amazingly and will cosset my chubby rear on long journeys as well as showing a clean pair of heels to most things on the road, all for less than £8k. Or tell me where i can get one

I'll shatter the illusion a bit.......it's called the gearbox.

Much over 300hp and more significantly the enormous 500Nm+ torque of a Stage 4 and above 9k Aero engine, the gearbox life can be measured in months. It's the BIG weakspot on these cars.

IIRC, one of the Maptun founders, used to have a supply of rebuilt gearboxes in the workshop and had to change them every few months on his 500+hp 9k Aero.

Maptun have finally got Quaife to design/build a suitably strong enough 6-speed gearset now, but that you'll need the same budget for that and the diff as you will need for the engine......
As mentioned, Ylee is yer man, and IIRC his Aero monster is shortly getting one of the first of these gearboxes.

Have a read of this thread on UKSaabs.

http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/UKS/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19579 

There is a compromise, MapTun can do mappings which limit torque to within drivetrain tolerances but deliver bhp (For example, they do that with their 9-3 mappings for people with automatics where they rate the maximum for the gearbox at 400Nm). Not the complete package but still a lot of oomph... My 9-3 Auto has a Stage 3 MapTun with 270bhp and 370Nm. So far its enough for me (but I've not had the mods long )

Not exactly.
The torque output of a Stage 4 and above 9k Aero is waaaay above your 9-3 auto, and anyway, the Maptun software for all 9k ECU upgrades, by default already includes a torque limit on first and second gear.

[Prof Beard]

aeropilot said:

Prof Beard said:

aeropilot said:

D_T_W said:

Go on, shatter my illiusion that i could have a reliable 400bhp car that can be used everyday, that handles and stops amazingly and will cosset my chubby rear on long journeys as well as showing a clean pair of heels to most things on the road, all for less than £8k. Or tell me where i can get one

I'll shatter the illusion a bit.......it's called the gearbox.

Much over 300hp and more significantly the enormous 500Nm+ torque of a Stage 4 and above 9k Aero engine, the gearbox life can be measured in months. It's the BIG weakspot on these cars.

IIRC, one of the Maptun founders, used to have a supply of rebuilt gearboxes in the workshop and had to change them every few months on his 500+hp 9k Aero.

Maptun have finally got Quaife to design/build a suitably strong enough 6-speed gearset now, but that you'll need the same budget for that and the diff as you will need for the engine......
As mentioned, Ylee is yer man, and IIRC his Aero monster is shortly getting one of the first of these gearboxes.

Have a read of this thread on UKSaabs.

http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/UKS/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19579 

There is a compromise, MapTun can do mappings which limit torque to within drivetrain tolerances but deliver bhp (For example, they do that with their 9-3 mappings for people with automatics where they rate the maximum for the gearbox at 400Nm). Not the complete package but still a lot of oomph... My 9-3 Auto has a Stage 3 MapTun with 270bhp and 370Nm. So far its enough for me (but I've not had the mods long )

Not exactly.
The torque output of a Stage 4 and above 9k Aero is waaaay above your 9-3 auto, and anyway, the Maptun software for all 9k ECU upgrades, by default already includes a torque limit on first and second gear.

From the MapTun website:

"Cars with automatic gearbox

In order to avoid straining the automatic gearbox we choose to limit torque to 400 Nm.

Maximum power will be the same as cars with manual gearbox, only mid-range torque is limited."

They told me that this applied to Stages of tune above the Stage 3 I have now...

[Pentoman]

I'm following this interestedly(?). It all reminds me of the slightly barmy old dark blue L-reg Volvo 850 saloon I had an encounter with recently. It was clearly lower than normal and had had attention paid to it but was really was more ratty than chavved up, and still on its standard turbine type wheels but painted black. It wasn't even a T5 or anything special. However, it became very obvious that it had an awful lot of power and it made lots of non-factory noises. A few little bursts down the dual carriageway generally made my 202hp 1300kg Merc look very slow while the Volvo bobbed up and down in my rear view mirror each time it changed gear . It did rather appeal to me, even if I bet the handling was acceptable at best and the FWD a bit interesting. So now I am a little more aware of the Swedish tuning scene - apparently the Volvo turbo engines are great - and have even discovered Swedes are creating 450bhp versions of the aforementioned Cosworth Mercedes!

Sorry, to get us back on topic a bit, what tunes better Saabs or Volvos?

[D_T_W]

Pentoman said:

I'm following this interestedly(?). It all reminds me of the slightly barmy old dark blue L-reg Volvo 850 saloon I had an encounter with recently. It was clearly lower than normal and had had attention paid to it but was really was more ratty than chavved up, and still on its standard turbine type wheels but painted black. It wasn't even a T5 or anything special. However, it became very obvious that it had an awful lot of power and it made lots of non-factory noises. A few little bursts down the dual carriageway generally made my 202hp 1300kg Merc look very slow while the Volvo bobbed up and down in my rear view mirror each time it changed gear . It did rather appeal to me, even if I bet the handling was acceptable at best and the FWD a bit interesting. So now I am a little more aware of the Swedish tuning scene - apparently the Volvo turbo engines are great - and have even discovered Swedes are creating 450bhp versions of the aforementioned Cosworth Mercedes!

Sorry, to get us back on topic a bit, what tunes better Saabs or Volvos?

That's partly what interested me, i forgot just how much go the Aero has, and it has to be cheaper to run than my current steed, even if it does lose out in the handling stakes.
There's a couple of very nice 850 T5-R's for sale at the moment, as well as a couple of decent Aeros, hence my asking.

[aeropilot]

Prof Beard said:

From the MapTun website:

"Cars with automatic gearbox

In order to avoid straining the automatic gearbox we choose to limit torque to 400 Nm.

Maximum power will be the same as cars with manual gearbox, only mid-range torque is limited."

They told me that this applied to Stages of tune above the Stage 3 I have now...

You seem to be getting a little confused about the relevence to your 9-3 auto and a discussion about a manual gearbox 9k Aero...

Your quote has really no relevance to the problems with a manual gearbox 9k Aero, as I have indicated.

Edited by aeropilot on Friday 14th March 10:19

[aeropilot]

Pentoman said:

Sorry, to get us back on topic a bit, what tunes better Saabs or Volvos?

You can't say either tunes better than the other, but the Trionic engine management system in the Saab's is far more advanced than the Volvo, and is therefore more expensive to remap with only a handfull of tuners with the ability to do so properly.
So, in that respect the Volvo is easier and potentially cheaper to tune, not neccessarily 'better'.

[ylee coyote]

so here I am
reliable ?
I have had the stage 7 for 60,000 miles and the only drama has been the gearbox('s) ..averaging about 12 k /set
economical ?
hard to believe but I manage on average 30 Mpg....
Handles ?
can do if you change the rear a/r bar to a thicker one and change all of the bushes to poly altho some find this too harsh
billies or koni shocks and firmer springs help a lot
But an absoulute must is the quaife LSD
Stops ?
I have the AP four pots and 320 mm discs (the std set up is pretty pants imho)
Best seats in the business (but you know this already )

I am currently awaiting the quaife 6 speed to be fitted and this should solve my gearbox woes

volvo v saab

the volvo engine is not as strong as the saab and needs better pistons if you are taking it over 300 hp
My car has done 270 ,000 miles and still has the origonal pistons and other oily bits
altho I did get new piston rings fitted at 200,000 miles

[D_T_W]

ylee coyote said:

so here I am
reliable ?
I have had the stage 7 for 60,000 miles and the only drama has been the gearbox('s) ..averaging about 12 k /set
economical ?
hard to believe but I manage on average 30 Mpg....
Handles ?
can do if you change the rear a/r bar to a thicker one and change all of the bushes to poly altho some find this too harsh
billies or koni shocks and firmer springs help a lot
But an absoulute must is the quaife LSD
Stops ?
I have the AP four pots and 320 mm discs (the std set up is pretty pants imho)
Best seats in the business (but you know this already )

I am currently awaiting the quaife 6 speed to be fitted and this should solve my gearbox woes

volvo v saab

the volvo engine is not as strong as the saab and needs better pistons if you are taking it over 300 hp
My car has done 270 ,000 miles and still has the origonal pistons and other oily bits
altho I did get new piston rings fitted at 200,000 miles

I was just checking this thread to get your profile so i could drop you a PM! As i suspected, very few down points, and lots of upsides! Hmm, now i'm in a pickle
I see you're in Scotland, don't suppose you could be tempted along to the Highland hoon next month?
Having just had another look at the Maptun website, I see it's around £7500 for the stage 7, obviously excluding suspension/diff/gearbox. I have to admit it makes it a very tempting idea, especially as there's a Maptun agent in Edinburgh.
Can you throw me your honest opinion on the car, as in what it's like to drive/live with on a daily basis? I'm just getting more and more tempted to go for it, but there's that little voice at the back of my head telling me it's a crazy idea

[Prof Beard]

aeropilot said:

Prof Beard said:

From the MapTun website:

"Cars with automatic gearbox

In order to avoid straining the automatic gearbox we choose to limit torque to 400 Nm.

Maximum power will be the same as cars with manual gearbox, only mid-range torque is limited."

They told me that this applied to Stages of tune above the Stage 3 I have now...

You seem to be getting a little confused about the relevence to your 9-3 auto and a discussion about a manual gearbox 9k Aero...

Your quote has really no relevance to the problems with a manual gearbox 9k Aero, as I have indicated.

Edited by aeropilot on Friday 14th March 10:19

I understand what you mean - but the quote from MapTun applied to ALL Autos (not just 9-3s, AND I know D_T_W's car is manual) - the point I was trying to make was it IS possible when remapping to limit torque whilst increasing BHP, I thought it was a point worth making when identifying weak points like the 9000 gearbox vs the 9000 engine - but it would be a compromise as I originally said. Hence I wasn't being confused, merely using my car to illustrate the point?

Edited by Prof Beard on Friday 14th March 13:32

[ylee coyote]

D_T_W said:

ylee coyote said:

so here I am
reliable ?
I have had the stage 7 for 60,000 miles and the only drama has been the gearbox('s) ..averaging about 12 k /set
economical ?
hard to believe but I manage on average 30 Mpg....
Handles ?
can do if you change the rear a/r bar to a thicker one and change all of the bushes to poly altho some find this too harsh
billies or koni shocks and firmer springs help a lot
But an absoulute must is the quaife LSD
Stops ?
I have the AP four pots and 320 mm discs (the std set up is pretty pants imho)
Best seats in the business (but you know this already )

I am currently awaiting the quaife 6 speed to be fitted and this should solve my gearbox woes

volvo v saab

the volvo engine is not as strong as the saab and needs better pistons if you are taking it over 300 hp
My car has done 270 ,000 miles and still has the origonal pistons and other oily bits
altho I did get new piston rings fitted at 200,000 miles

I was just checking this thread to get your profile so i could drop you a PM! As i suspected, very few down points, and lots of upsides! Hmm, now i'm in a pickle
I see you're in Scotland, don't suppose you could be tempted along to the Highland hoon next month?
Having just had another look at the Maptun website, I see it's around £7500 for the stage 7, obviously excluding suspension/diff/gearbox. I have to admit it makes it a very tempting idea, especially as there's a Maptun agent in Edinburgh.
Can you throw me your honest opinion on the car, as in what it's like to drive/live with on a daily basis? I'm just getting more and more tempted to go for it, but there's that little voice at the back of my head telling me it's a crazy idea

Best person to speak to is Ranald at Roseisle he has an even more radical 9000 !!!
I believe he is at 530 hp or thereabouts
Roseisle has done most of the later works on my car and he has a 6 speed fitted to his

be warned ,to get the best out of this you do need to have everything in tip top condition or you will break things

when I did the stage 6 I did get the engine torn down lightened and balanced the crank ported the head and did a big valve converson
this gave me the base from which to work
Between Roseisle and myself we have found the best places to get things done like SS exhausts ,induction pipework and the like which makes the difference
And the other thing to remember it will take time to bed the thing down ,it is not plug and play and to get the best out of it is to get a custom tune from fredrik from Maptun who comes over to scotland a few times a year

I am still waiting for the quaife 'box to be fitted I have elected to cryo treat the gears and this is taking a little longer
we estimate it should be ready by beginning April (fingers crossed)

[trig9k]

God only knows what you have paid for that lot Ylee ,,, let alone the time & effort... but you can have a very quick reliable Aero for not a lot of effort and money,,,,, my Aero cost £1400 then I fitted an induction kit £55 and a second hand stg3 Saabflight ECU £150 finished off with a JT full 3"system and a second hand Abbott intercooler £130 ...
All of the above gave me 304bhp and a big smile ,, plus this power range means I can use standard clucth and turbo and hopfully avoid gearbox rebuilds

I've not gone for big stoppers just decent pads Ferodo DS2500, Brembo discs, and braided hoses this more than good enough for the road and works well on the track.

I've just recently brought another mint Aero for £1500 I will only lightly mod this to about stg2 and try and keep the standard comfort with a little more go

Edited by trig9k on Friday 21st March 14:09

[ylee coyote]

I kept mine like that for a long time but ...
they say power corrupts !!

My goal was to see how far can you go and still keep it a daily driver and I would say I was there now

still waiting on the gearbox

how much did I pay ?

I shudder to think

the stage 6 was not that much, including all the engine work it was around 5 k

but sorting it out from there and moving it to stage 7 took a long time and was probably as expensive as getting it to stage 6

gearboxes have been expensive and there has been driveline failure recently which have taken out the 'box

still less expensive than a major service on an M5 ....

this car ,to me is the perfect car ,in terms of pace ,space and versatility and I will continue to keep it running as long as I can

I gave it a bare metal respray last year so should be good for another 250,000 miles

As my wife continues to point out I could run a nice new car for the money I pay but that is running with the herd....

[D_T_W]

ylee coyote said:

still less expensive than a major service on an M5 ....

And there is one of the main reasons i was thinking about it!
I don't use my M5 as a daily driver, mainly because it frightens me everytime i watch the fuel guage drop as soon as it's started, along with the associated running costs!
Still seriously considering the 9000 as an option, need to do more research and get a poke about a tweaked one at some point

[trig9k]

Yep part of the grin factor is knowing the 9k will leave most cars behind and cost nothing to run there not that common and my new 9k Aero has the lot all the toys for banger money,, I really fancied a change but what car is affordable , fast , easy to mod,can drive the family in safety & comfort and return good mpg and is a lot cheaper to insure than less powerful cars!!

Ylee I look forward to seeing your monster 9k one day...

[mat1227]

Picking up on this thread, I'm intrigued - does anyone have anything to add to the PPC article? Any tricky bits glossed over for the sake of a story? It seems so easy.

It appeared to suggest £750 or so for a good pre '91 2.3l turbo (LPT or HPT didn't seem to matter). Make sure you choose one with the funny valve thing on rad and an intercooler, then all you need to do is turn a little dial under the dash and clamp the fuel something-or-other () in a vice and you get a realistic 250bhp plus @ 1.2 bar?

Forgive me I know nothing about Saabs, and may have 'misremembered' some of this as I'm at work and don't have the mag with me. Be interested to know if it really is this simple, as that suggests a fairly reliable 250bhp+ for peanuts ..