Saab 900 Se Turbo Cooling Issues.
Discussion
Hello Everybody.
Well, i am really scratching my head on this one, and i wonder if anyone can help.
The car started loosing a small ammount of coolant from the expansion tank, over a number of weeks. The SID display kept coming up with 'coolant level low', where i would occasionally top it back up. On friday it came to a point where i ended up having to top up the tank every 4 hours, on closer inspection i could see that it was leaking from the thermostat housing.
So i purchased a thermostat and o rings for £6 and installed them yesterday afternoon, refilled the expansion tank, pressurised the system, and all was runnng fine. Had the car runnong for 30 miniutes, and heating working well, rad fan working well and temp guage working well. Plus no leaks from the thermostat housing... So i thought thats it...problem solved.
We decided to go to the beach that afternoon, halfway down the motorway the SID display reads' Coolant Level Low' again. So with abit of frustaion, i pull over at the service staion and check the engine. The coolant level had gone down just abit lower then the sensor...so I thought its probbably AIR bleeding out of the system, so i waited for around 20 mins for the system to cool, and topped it up again with a dash of water.
Carried on the journey....everything is fine.....The problems really started on the way back....
On our way back, about half way through the journey...trafic came to a standstill, after about 10 mins the warning message appeared on the SID display again, and on around onther 10 the car started to missfire a little and the engine temp guage shot towards the red (not into the red) about three quarters up the white part of the guage and then came back down to the middle again, knowing there was something wrong i immediatley pulled over to the hard shoulder and swiched the engne off, and called saab breakdown service.
Whilst wating for the guy, i checked the tank again, and this time it was completly dry.
When the breakdown guy arrived, he topped the system up with water again, and checked it all for leaks etc. Coulnt see anything, and alot of air bubbles had come up from the tank whilst reving the engine....so we kep adding mroe water....eventually the air bubbles stopped, and we concluded that when I changed the thermostat i had caused an air-lock in the system.
Erring on the side of precaution......he gave me a container of water just in case more air gets trapped in the system...he showed me how to get the air out.....and let me have the water... we went on our way...
Cut a long story short.....every 10 -20 miles we had to stop, as the problem was getting worse......coolant kept running dry...no signs of leaks.....and engine misfiring when getting hot.
When we eventually got home at around 2:00 this morning....again filled the system up fully with my hosepipe, run the car so the water would get round the engine again, the temp came down.. and the car stopped mis-firing..
Checked the car this morining... and the water is still there.
I just cannot work out what is the issue...i thought head gasket...but oil is in good condition....and no petrol smell in the coolant etc etc... Im not overly worried as the car is a fun thing anyway...i have two other cars i own one a van and a ford '03 plate KA......But i LOVE my saab....and its getting to me......
Any ideas?
Well, i am really scratching my head on this one, and i wonder if anyone can help.
The car started loosing a small ammount of coolant from the expansion tank, over a number of weeks. The SID display kept coming up with 'coolant level low', where i would occasionally top it back up. On friday it came to a point where i ended up having to top up the tank every 4 hours, on closer inspection i could see that it was leaking from the thermostat housing.
So i purchased a thermostat and o rings for £6 and installed them yesterday afternoon, refilled the expansion tank, pressurised the system, and all was runnng fine. Had the car runnong for 30 miniutes, and heating working well, rad fan working well and temp guage working well. Plus no leaks from the thermostat housing... So i thought thats it...problem solved.
We decided to go to the beach that afternoon, halfway down the motorway the SID display reads' Coolant Level Low' again. So with abit of frustaion, i pull over at the service staion and check the engine. The coolant level had gone down just abit lower then the sensor...so I thought its probbably AIR bleeding out of the system, so i waited for around 20 mins for the system to cool, and topped it up again with a dash of water.
Carried on the journey....everything is fine.....The problems really started on the way back....
On our way back, about half way through the journey...trafic came to a standstill, after about 10 mins the warning message appeared on the SID display again, and on around onther 10 the car started to missfire a little and the engine temp guage shot towards the red (not into the red) about three quarters up the white part of the guage and then came back down to the middle again, knowing there was something wrong i immediatley pulled over to the hard shoulder and swiched the engne off, and called saab breakdown service.
Whilst wating for the guy, i checked the tank again, and this time it was completly dry.
When the breakdown guy arrived, he topped the system up with water again, and checked it all for leaks etc. Coulnt see anything, and alot of air bubbles had come up from the tank whilst reving the engine....so we kep adding mroe water....eventually the air bubbles stopped, and we concluded that when I changed the thermostat i had caused an air-lock in the system.
Erring on the side of precaution......he gave me a container of water just in case more air gets trapped in the system...he showed me how to get the air out.....and let me have the water... we went on our way...
Cut a long story short.....every 10 -20 miles we had to stop, as the problem was getting worse......coolant kept running dry...no signs of leaks.....and engine misfiring when getting hot.
When we eventually got home at around 2:00 this morning....again filled the system up fully with my hosepipe, run the car so the water would get round the engine again, the temp came down.. and the car stopped mis-firing..
Checked the car this morining... and the water is still there.
I just cannot work out what is the issue...i thought head gasket...but oil is in good condition....and no petrol smell in the coolant etc etc... Im not overly worried as the car is a fun thing anyway...i have two other cars i own one a van and a ford '03 plate KA......But i LOVE my saab....and its getting to me......
Any ideas?
well as you can gues from my previous posts i am not very technically minded
but..i have had a few 'coolant level' low warnings on my SID
i fixed it by going to the garage and one of the hoses had split
another time i accidentally had put a mixture of lemon juice and oil in the coolant thing
and i went to london only a month ago and the coolant level was low again., i just top it up, and check the hoses
maybe visit www.saabcentral.com for ideas?
but..i have had a few 'coolant level' low warnings on my SID
i fixed it by going to the garage and one of the hoses had split
another time i accidentally had put a mixture of lemon juice and oil in the coolant thing
and i went to london only a month ago and the coolant level was low again., i just top it up, and check the hoses
maybe visit www.saabcentral.com for ideas?
prof beard, you would be suprrised...i actually put some Iron Bru in the coolant tank last month as i was stuck on park Lane in rush hour traffic with no water and the car was overheating..but the car now is running ok
also i noticed your posts on other forums, and fair play for mentioning how good Saabs are at each and every opportunity! it was a spectacular evening earlier on and i knew i had to just blast it round the countryside in my saab, still goes fantastically
edit to add, Professor Beard, did you go to the saabcentral Coventry meeting about 1-2 years ago?
also i noticed your posts on other forums, and fair play for mentioning how good Saabs are at each and every opportunity! it was a spectacular evening earlier on and i knew i had to just blast it round the countryside in my saab, still goes fantastically
edit to add, Professor Beard, did you go to the saabcentral Coventry meeting about 1-2 years ago?
Edited by K321 on Wednesday 8th August 00:21
OK,
The 1st cylinder next to the cam chains is freakily clean. Looks like water is getting into that bore.
checked head gasket and it looks like one of the cylinder rings is slighly perrished, but this is not on the 1st cylinder, but the 4th.
No obvoise signs of head gasket failure around the 1st cyliner, so still unure how water is getting into that bore.
There is either a crack in the block,(god please i hope not) or the bolts were simply not torqued enough.
I must admit when I undone the head, the bolts did not need much persuading. Genrally it takes a lot of force to remove head bolts, but using a breaker bar, they came undone with little or hardly any force at all, in fact as soon as i undone the bolts by 1/4 turn they were finger loose. That didint seem right to me. it took me more force to get the bolts off the cam sprokets with the same breaker bar.
The 1st cylinder next to the cam chains is freakily clean. Looks like water is getting into that bore.
checked head gasket and it looks like one of the cylinder rings is slighly perrished, but this is not on the 1st cylinder, but the 4th.
No obvoise signs of head gasket failure around the 1st cyliner, so still unure how water is getting into that bore.
There is either a crack in the block,(god please i hope not) or the bolts were simply not torqued enough.
I must admit when I undone the head, the bolts did not need much persuading. Genrally it takes a lot of force to remove head bolts, but using a breaker bar, they came undone with little or hardly any force at all, in fact as soon as i undone the bolts by 1/4 turn they were finger loose. That didint seem right to me. it took me more force to get the bolts off the cam sprokets with the same breaker bar.
An update..
Over the weekend to make sure it wasnt a crack in the block, I got some penetrating dye and spayed all over inside the bores, and inside the water gullies. With a quick spray of developer, im glad to say that no visible cracks were identified..
So, i carried on rebuilding the engine, new head gasket, new vaccum hoses and new exasut and inlet gastkets, oil change and new sump plug.
Finished the major reuilding work Sunday afternoon. Got home today checked over the engine, made sure there was no loose bolts etc etc, connected up the wiring looms, filled and the oil system and added water to the colling system and fired her up...
After a couple of stuters, and pops (fuel had got into the cylinders when i was cranking the engine with no spark plugs in it to get the new oil pressure up before firing) she came to life, smooth and purring lovley.
Now was just a waiting game to se if the new head gasket had infact solved the issue. And As far as i can see, it looks like it has.. after taking her out for a 100 mile test drive, the same ammount of water reamins in the header tank as when i left.
She is runing much smoother, and feels more urgent than before. So i am chuffed to bits at the mo cos i never done a head gasket until now.
Over the weekend to make sure it wasnt a crack in the block, I got some penetrating dye and spayed all over inside the bores, and inside the water gullies. With a quick spray of developer, im glad to say that no visible cracks were identified..
So, i carried on rebuilding the engine, new head gasket, new vaccum hoses and new exasut and inlet gastkets, oil change and new sump plug.
Finished the major reuilding work Sunday afternoon. Got home today checked over the engine, made sure there was no loose bolts etc etc, connected up the wiring looms, filled and the oil system and added water to the colling system and fired her up...
After a couple of stuters, and pops (fuel had got into the cylinders when i was cranking the engine with no spark plugs in it to get the new oil pressure up before firing) she came to life, smooth and purring lovley.
Now was just a waiting game to se if the new head gasket had infact solved the issue. And As far as i can see, it looks like it has.. after taking her out for a 100 mile test drive, the same ammount of water reamins in the header tank as when i left.
She is runing much smoother, and feels more urgent than before. So i am chuffed to bits at the mo cos i never done a head gasket until now.
Well,
Its fairly straightforward really, you have to be methodical and systematic. Initially I did worry if I would remember where everything goes, but I took notes and labeled hoses and wires as I went to aid rebuilding. Also any screws and belts that were undone, they were put back into their threads again this enabled me to not loose a single bolt. Also use new headbolts and gaskets wherever you disturb them.
1) disconnect the battery, raise the car and remove the front drivers road wheel, support the car on axle stands, and remove the plastic shielding starting with the cover in the wheel arch to the front plastic valances covering the subframe. Drain the coolant and remove the airbox from the turbo. Put car in neutral,
2): carefully note all water/boost/ vacuum pipes, and wires that connect to /obstruct the head, and label them with a bright sticky tape or pen. Do not attempt to remove any fixed turbocharger pipes from the turbo, it is not necessary and you can use them to your advantage later. There is only one fixed coolant pipe that will need disconnecting, and that’s the banjo bolt that goes into the side of the head near the thermostat end.
3) Start removing all pipes that you have identified. Where possible, put the respective clips re-tightened back onto the pipes so that you don’t loose any parts, and store them away from harm.
4), Slacken the serpentine belt tesioner using a breaker bar in the slot of the tensiomner body by pulling towards the engine, and slide a small but strong screwdriver into the holding holes, do not remove the screwdriver until you put the belt back on. Slide off the belt, noting its orientation on the pulleys. Remove the power steering pump, and tie it out of the way.
5), Remove and unplug the wring looms from on top of the inlet manifold, noting where each connector goes, from every spade connector and plug. Remove the accelerator cable assembly, and the fuel rail containing the fuel injectors (tie the loom and fuel rail out of the way). Remove the Idle control valve, and hoses, and remove any vacuum hoses that connect to the cars engine bay components from the inlet manifold, note down where each pipe goes. Remove the oil filler tube, by removing the bracket, and pull up out of the way, (be careful as some oil filler tubes will have a cable tie around them to secure the alternator, grounding, and starter cables you will need to cut this off)
6) Slacken the bolts (and put to one side) on the inlet manifold, and remove the supporting bracket underneath the manifold. Lift the manifold off with the electronic pre-heating plate, and put to onside. Slacken the cam cover bolts, and undo the fixed aluminum PCV pipe, and pull it up over the cover so it’s hanging over the engine like a big hook. Remove the four nuts that screw onto the turbo downpipe flange.
7) Prise open the cam cover with a feeler blade, and pull sharply towards you whilst lifting up on the head to free the cover. This might take a lot of energy, so be prepared. Remove spark plugs.
8) Attach a breaker bar to the cam sprocket, an adjustable spanner and rag on the other end of the cam shaft which is square for this purpose. Use the head as a stopper for the spanner, but make sure you pad very very well with the rags to stop from damaging the alloy. Push the breaker bar carefully in an anti clockwise movement, you will require allot of force to do this, but the bolts are quite small so do it gradually, as you can sheer the heads of you try to do it too fast.
9) Remove the timing chain tensioner and slacken the chain, remove the sprockets, let the chain sit in the in the slot.
10) Slacken the headbolts bolts in order as directed, and remove the head by carefully rocking the engine from side to side, it will come away quite easily normally, but make sure that you grab hold of the block firmly, and when it does come free lift off sharply by putting fingers into the inlet holes and using the exhaust manifold as a handle. Keep a firm grip, because even though it’s made from alloy, it’s surprisingly heavy (around 20-30 KG)
11), With the head off, and safely put to one side, take the timing chain, and hook it round the PCV hose that you used as a hook. This will enable you to turn the engine without damaging the chain.
12) Clean up all mating surfaces, using a plastic scraper and/or dishwashing scourer. Be careful of the head, because alloy is very soft and will easily be damaged. Remove all traces of gasket from the inlet manifold, on both the preheater and manifold. If you are decarbonsing, I don’t recommend you use wire brushes or silicon carbide paper. Use Mr Muscle oven cleaner instead, works very well, and does not damage the pistons or valves. When finished cleaning, WD40 the pistons, valves, liners and mating surfaces of the block, as rust can start very quickly it being made out of iron. WD40 the head, and put to onside.(do not WD 40 the cams)
13) Inspect the liners for cracks, use penetrating dye if possible. Turn the crank to 0 TDC if it is not already done so; also clean up the outside of the engine block with WD40 to remove dirt. Using a powerful vacuum cleaner, suck the gallyways out to remove old bits of gasket, if you have an air line, blow it out instead. Make sure that you safely removed the dowels from the block you don’t want to suck those up as you will have to get dirty to retrieve them again. Don’t worry about making the surfaces mirror clean this is A) not attainable anyway and B) too risky as you can alter the geometry of the mating surfaces if you attempt to clean them to a mirror like finish, as long as its smooth, and free of old gasket you’re ok. Check the head and block for warpage, using a straight edge, if warpage is evident, skimming is needed and you will need to get that done by a specialist, also make sure that if you are skimming the head and block, to get yourself a gasket shim made up to the thickness of the skimming, as you will need one to correct the compression ratio again. Set the cams on the head to 0 TDC
14) Clean all mating surfaces with unleaded petrol on a swab, then dry off the surfaces with paper towels. Place the new gasket on the block with the dowels back in their holes, and lower the head carefully onto the block. You might need some help as it’s not easy due to the weight.
15) Place new headbolts into the slots finger tight, do not tighten at this stage, and attach the cam chains and sprockets, making sure they both line up at TDC and check that the crank lines up at TDC. Turn the crank clockwise 4 complete revolutions, to check that the chain does not jump a sprocket tooth (common issue this), re-attach the timing chain tensioner and turn the engine two more times to TDC. Check everything double.
16) Re torque the headbolts, and reverses stages 10-0 where applicable.
Easy,
Remeber to put new oil in with new filters, and fill up the car with coolant.
Its fairly straightforward really, you have to be methodical and systematic. Initially I did worry if I would remember where everything goes, but I took notes and labeled hoses and wires as I went to aid rebuilding. Also any screws and belts that were undone, they were put back into their threads again this enabled me to not loose a single bolt. Also use new headbolts and gaskets wherever you disturb them.
1) disconnect the battery, raise the car and remove the front drivers road wheel, support the car on axle stands, and remove the plastic shielding starting with the cover in the wheel arch to the front plastic valances covering the subframe. Drain the coolant and remove the airbox from the turbo. Put car in neutral,
2): carefully note all water/boost/ vacuum pipes, and wires that connect to /obstruct the head, and label them with a bright sticky tape or pen. Do not attempt to remove any fixed turbocharger pipes from the turbo, it is not necessary and you can use them to your advantage later. There is only one fixed coolant pipe that will need disconnecting, and that’s the banjo bolt that goes into the side of the head near the thermostat end.
3) Start removing all pipes that you have identified. Where possible, put the respective clips re-tightened back onto the pipes so that you don’t loose any parts, and store them away from harm.
4), Slacken the serpentine belt tesioner using a breaker bar in the slot of the tensiomner body by pulling towards the engine, and slide a small but strong screwdriver into the holding holes, do not remove the screwdriver until you put the belt back on. Slide off the belt, noting its orientation on the pulleys. Remove the power steering pump, and tie it out of the way.
5), Remove and unplug the wring looms from on top of the inlet manifold, noting where each connector goes, from every spade connector and plug. Remove the accelerator cable assembly, and the fuel rail containing the fuel injectors (tie the loom and fuel rail out of the way). Remove the Idle control valve, and hoses, and remove any vacuum hoses that connect to the cars engine bay components from the inlet manifold, note down where each pipe goes. Remove the oil filler tube, by removing the bracket, and pull up out of the way, (be careful as some oil filler tubes will have a cable tie around them to secure the alternator, grounding, and starter cables you will need to cut this off)
6) Slacken the bolts (and put to one side) on the inlet manifold, and remove the supporting bracket underneath the manifold. Lift the manifold off with the electronic pre-heating plate, and put to onside. Slacken the cam cover bolts, and undo the fixed aluminum PCV pipe, and pull it up over the cover so it’s hanging over the engine like a big hook. Remove the four nuts that screw onto the turbo downpipe flange.
7) Prise open the cam cover with a feeler blade, and pull sharply towards you whilst lifting up on the head to free the cover. This might take a lot of energy, so be prepared. Remove spark plugs.
8) Attach a breaker bar to the cam sprocket, an adjustable spanner and rag on the other end of the cam shaft which is square for this purpose. Use the head as a stopper for the spanner, but make sure you pad very very well with the rags to stop from damaging the alloy. Push the breaker bar carefully in an anti clockwise movement, you will require allot of force to do this, but the bolts are quite small so do it gradually, as you can sheer the heads of you try to do it too fast.
9) Remove the timing chain tensioner and slacken the chain, remove the sprockets, let the chain sit in the in the slot.
10) Slacken the headbolts bolts in order as directed, and remove the head by carefully rocking the engine from side to side, it will come away quite easily normally, but make sure that you grab hold of the block firmly, and when it does come free lift off sharply by putting fingers into the inlet holes and using the exhaust manifold as a handle. Keep a firm grip, because even though it’s made from alloy, it’s surprisingly heavy (around 20-30 KG)
11), With the head off, and safely put to one side, take the timing chain, and hook it round the PCV hose that you used as a hook. This will enable you to turn the engine without damaging the chain.
12) Clean up all mating surfaces, using a plastic scraper and/or dishwashing scourer. Be careful of the head, because alloy is very soft and will easily be damaged. Remove all traces of gasket from the inlet manifold, on both the preheater and manifold. If you are decarbonsing, I don’t recommend you use wire brushes or silicon carbide paper. Use Mr Muscle oven cleaner instead, works very well, and does not damage the pistons or valves. When finished cleaning, WD40 the pistons, valves, liners and mating surfaces of the block, as rust can start very quickly it being made out of iron. WD40 the head, and put to onside.(do not WD 40 the cams)
13) Inspect the liners for cracks, use penetrating dye if possible. Turn the crank to 0 TDC if it is not already done so; also clean up the outside of the engine block with WD40 to remove dirt. Using a powerful vacuum cleaner, suck the gallyways out to remove old bits of gasket, if you have an air line, blow it out instead. Make sure that you safely removed the dowels from the block you don’t want to suck those up as you will have to get dirty to retrieve them again. Don’t worry about making the surfaces mirror clean this is A) not attainable anyway and B) too risky as you can alter the geometry of the mating surfaces if you attempt to clean them to a mirror like finish, as long as its smooth, and free of old gasket you’re ok. Check the head and block for warpage, using a straight edge, if warpage is evident, skimming is needed and you will need to get that done by a specialist, also make sure that if you are skimming the head and block, to get yourself a gasket shim made up to the thickness of the skimming, as you will need one to correct the compression ratio again. Set the cams on the head to 0 TDC
14) Clean all mating surfaces with unleaded petrol on a swab, then dry off the surfaces with paper towels. Place the new gasket on the block with the dowels back in their holes, and lower the head carefully onto the block. You might need some help as it’s not easy due to the weight.
15) Place new headbolts into the slots finger tight, do not tighten at this stage, and attach the cam chains and sprockets, making sure they both line up at TDC and check that the crank lines up at TDC. Turn the crank clockwise 4 complete revolutions, to check that the chain does not jump a sprocket tooth (common issue this), re-attach the timing chain tensioner and turn the engine two more times to TDC. Check everything double.
16) Re torque the headbolts, and reverses stages 10-0 where applicable.
Easy,
Remeber to put new oil in with new filters, and fill up the car with coolant.
Edited by mashhead on Saturday 18th August 11:57
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