Discussion
Since I parted with my 9000 T16 a while back, I've been hankering after another Saab, and I've spotted a nice looking c900 T16 S convertible:
[url]900 turbo S ragtop|http://tinyurl.com/8fh4u[/URL]
I've read the saabscene buyers guide, but is there anything specific to MY92 to watch for?
And am I right in thinking the engine output dropped to 160hp in '92? Is this anything to do with a cat being fitted? Also, did the autobox get any better with the later models, or is it still a bit fragile?
Finally, I've noticed the cover that goes over the roof when retracted is missing; what are these like to find second hand?
Anything else chaps?
MTIA,
Alan
[url]900 turbo S ragtop|http://tinyurl.com/8fh4u[/URL]
I've read the saabscene buyers guide, but is there anything specific to MY92 to watch for?
And am I right in thinking the engine output dropped to 160hp in '92? Is this anything to do with a cat being fitted? Also, did the autobox get any better with the later models, or is it still a bit fragile?
Finally, I've noticed the cover that goes over the roof when retracted is missing; what are these like to find second hand?
Anything else chaps?
MTIA,
Alan
Alan,
Nice looking car, a couple of things:
1) not sure about the Aus/NZ market but in the UK there were no 160bhp versions sold AFAIK - the T16S was 175bhp, LPTs were 150bhp, and Carlsson/Ruby was 185bhp. In the states the 16v Turbo was 160bhp and the SPG was 175bhp.
Not sure about the cat as it was an option on UK cars from 91 on - mine had a cat that has been replaced with a straight-through at some stage.
2) auto box is fragile, especially on full turbo models where there's all the the more torque being put through it. To be honest unless you have your heart set on an auto I'd keep an eye out for a manual. The vert is more of a cruiser than a sports car anyway, my dad has an LPT and to be honest the smooth power delivery is much more suited to the character of the car IMHO.
The cars to look for are 91 on as they had more bells and whistles (and in the manual boxed cars, the strongest gearbox.
A couple of things sound a bit odd - It says Turbo S but that could mean it's an LPT still, so check it's a full turbo (easy check is for an intercooler behind the LH headlamp and a black/red box in that wing, and a boost guage in the RH instrument cluster. Also he says 24v. Looks nice though. The best colour and barely run in at that mileage.
I'm sure Eric or Matt will be along soon with more info
In the meantime you might do well to ask in the forums on Saabscene or Saabcentral as there will be owners of cars like that from your neck of the woods who may be able to help you on the spec.
Edited: Oh yes, the roof cover was an accessory. They come up on ebay from time to time but IMHO it's a hassle as you can't just bang the hood up or down!
>> Edited by NiceCupOfTea on Wednesday 24th August 17:42
Nice looking car, a couple of things:
1) not sure about the Aus/NZ market but in the UK there were no 160bhp versions sold AFAIK - the T16S was 175bhp, LPTs were 150bhp, and Carlsson/Ruby was 185bhp. In the states the 16v Turbo was 160bhp and the SPG was 175bhp.
Not sure about the cat as it was an option on UK cars from 91 on - mine had a cat that has been replaced with a straight-through at some stage.
2) auto box is fragile, especially on full turbo models where there's all the the more torque being put through it. To be honest unless you have your heart set on an auto I'd keep an eye out for a manual. The vert is more of a cruiser than a sports car anyway, my dad has an LPT and to be honest the smooth power delivery is much more suited to the character of the car IMHO.
The cars to look for are 91 on as they had more bells and whistles (and in the manual boxed cars, the strongest gearbox.
A couple of things sound a bit odd - It says Turbo S but that could mean it's an LPT still, so check it's a full turbo (easy check is for an intercooler behind the LH headlamp and a black/red box in that wing, and a boost guage in the RH instrument cluster. Also he says 24v. Looks nice though. The best colour and barely run in at that mileage.
I'm sure Eric or Matt will be along soon with more info
In the meantime you might do well to ask in the forums on Saabscene or Saabcentral as there will be owners of cars like that from your neck of the woods who may be able to help you on the spec.
Edited: Oh yes, the roof cover was an accessory. They come up on ebay from time to time but IMHO it's a hassle as you can't just bang the hood up or down!
>> Edited by NiceCupOfTea on Wednesday 24th August 17:42
Well, I took it for a test drive today. It's got an intercooler, so not an LPT. It looked stunning, great bodywork, good paint, no smoke or funny noises and the auto box wasn't even too bad.
But... the brakes felt wooden and uninspiring, and I didn't think I was going to stop in time at the first junction I came to! The boost gauge was stuck on atmos and I couldn't feel any boost kicking in, cruise control didn't work, headlight wipers didn't work, air con didn't work, plus other minor niggles. So a bit disappointing.
It was my first drive in a 900, so are the brakes usually that bad? Also, should I expect a surge of power as the turbo spools up like in my old 9k, or is it more "seamless"? Or was the turbo just not working?
Hmmm...
But... the brakes felt wooden and uninspiring, and I didn't think I was going to stop in time at the first junction I came to! The boost gauge was stuck on atmos and I couldn't feel any boost kicking in, cruise control didn't work, headlight wipers didn't work, air con didn't work, plus other minor niggles. So a bit disappointing.
It was my first drive in a 900, so are the brakes usually that bad? Also, should I expect a surge of power as the turbo spools up like in my old 9k, or is it more "seamless"? Or was the turbo just not working?
Hmmm...
OK.
Brakes - mine were pretty wooden, a set of pagid fast road pads on the front has done wonders for the feel, much more progressive (or certainly feels that way).
a FPT should have a bit of a kick at 2500 revs, did it have a dash mounted boost guage? Could be something simple like a vacuum hose, or base boost adjustment. Did you notice what the guage was doing when you accelerated hard? Should climb to the end of the orange/start of the red at about 2500 and then drop back slightly as you keep it nailed (if it's standard). What do you mean stuck on atmospheric? As standard the cars should have a recirculating dumpvalve (no silly tssh noises
)
Headlight wipers, common fault, search for fixes on saabscene/saabcentral.
Cruise control often packs in - pedal switches can be to blame sometimes. Many cars had it so quite easy to find replacement bits off a scrapper.
Likewise with a/c - maybe just a recharge, more likely something has failed but you can get hold of the bits.
If the general condition is good maybe use it as a bargaining tool? Gearbox good? (no whine or popping out of gears) Engine good? (pulling well, idling OK) Well looked after?
I would be tempted to go back with somebody who knows a bit about Saabs who can diagnose the boost problem.
Try asking on one of the Saab boards.
>> Edited by NiceCupOfTea on Saturday 27th August 13:40
Brakes - mine were pretty wooden, a set of pagid fast road pads on the front has done wonders for the feel, much more progressive (or certainly feels that way).
a FPT should have a bit of a kick at 2500 revs, did it have a dash mounted boost guage? Could be something simple like a vacuum hose, or base boost adjustment. Did you notice what the guage was doing when you accelerated hard? Should climb to the end of the orange/start of the red at about 2500 and then drop back slightly as you keep it nailed (if it's standard). What do you mean stuck on atmospheric? As standard the cars should have a recirculating dumpvalve (no silly tssh noises
) Headlight wipers, common fault, search for fixes on saabscene/saabcentral.
Cruise control often packs in - pedal switches can be to blame sometimes. Many cars had it so quite easy to find replacement bits off a scrapper.
Likewise with a/c - maybe just a recharge, more likely something has failed but you can get hold of the bits.
If the general condition is good maybe use it as a bargaining tool? Gearbox good? (no whine or popping out of gears) Engine good? (pulling well, idling OK) Well looked after?
I would be tempted to go back with somebody who knows a bit about Saabs who can diagnose the boost problem.
Try asking on one of the Saab boards.
>> Edited by NiceCupOfTea on Saturday 27th August 13:40
The boost gauge needle didn't move from atmospheric pressure (where it sits with the engine off) the whole time, i.e. no positive pressure when nailing the throttle through the midrange, and no vacuum when lifting off at high RPM.
Probably just a loose vac pipe, but combined with the fact there was no shove in the back as I accelerated through 2500/3000 rpm, makes me worried.
Again, it might be something simple like the wastegate actuator rod come adrift, but with all the other niggles, I'm not sure I want to take a punt on it.
The seller is a dealer, and he says he'll take a look at the various issues, so I'll wait and see what happens.
First modification would be a set of 9000 discs and calipers though!
Probably just a loose vac pipe, but combined with the fact there was no shove in the back as I accelerated through 2500/3000 rpm, makes me worried.
Again, it might be something simple like the wastegate actuator rod come adrift, but with all the other niggles, I'm not sure I want to take a punt on it.
The seller is a dealer, and he says he'll take a look at the various issues, so I'll wait and see what happens.
First modification would be a set of 9000 discs and calipers though!
I've always felt the ABS brakes on c900's a bit disconcerting on first acqaintance compared to my non-ABS car - the pedal travel is very short and the feel is 'wooden' indeed. The stopping power should want for very little, though - as evidenced by the time I was doing close to 200 km/h on the outer lane of a motorway in a friend's '92 T16S (hunting a low flying 9-5 estate), when all of a sudden a Saab(!) convertible merged from an entrance ramp and decided to go straight for the overtaking lane at 100ish km/h! I thought I was going to clip his rear end at a fair lick (no hard shoulder on that side, no space for evasive manoeuvres - should have spotted that before I chose to travel at that speed even if it was for a short moment 
) but in the end I still had a couple of feet left between his rear bumper and my front one...
Should you want 'more' brakes (don't think I could have managed the above a second time shortly after the event - not that I would have needed it as I continued my travel at a rather more sedate pace ) - the larger Ate brake callipers from a '90-on 9000 bolt straight on except from the dust shield back plates needing to be trimmed and an L-shaped bracket for the short pieces of hard brake line that bolt to the 900 callipers to be fabricated.
The beauty of this conversion is, that the brake pad footprint is identical with that of E30 M3s and some older Ferraris (328 and Testarossa spring to mind), so that there's a good choice of performance compound pads (they might need a stroke or two with the file at the backplates to fit, though). Ferodo DS2500s are a firm favourite with the Saab performance crowd.
900T16 Convertibles of that era are indeed rated at 160 bhp; it was only the T16S tintops that got thier power upgraded to 170 or 175 bhp by that time, after the drop from 175 to 160 bhp because of the catalytic converter. A 'red box' APC (boost controller) upgrade (which a fair proportion of cars have fitted) takes 160 bhp models to 175 or 185 bhp, and 175 bhp models to 185. The now-defunct Trent Saab specialist/tuning outfit (now TSL Subaru) had a very effective Stage 1 kit rated at 220 bhp. It consisted of an APC upgrade, uprated (recirculating) dump valve, rising rate fuel pressure regulator and full stainless steel exhaust system. The likes of Matt_FP should still be able to knock a similar package up for you at a reasonable rate.
) but in the end I still had a couple of feet left between his rear bumper and my front one... Should you want 'more' brakes (don't think I could have managed the above a second time shortly after the event - not that I would have needed it as I continued my travel at a rather more sedate pace
) - the larger Ate brake callipers from a '90-on 9000 bolt straight on except from the dust shield back plates needing to be trimmed and an L-shaped bracket for the short pieces of hard brake line that bolt to the 900 callipers to be fabricated. The beauty of this conversion is, that the brake pad footprint is identical with that of E30 M3s and some older Ferraris (328 and Testarossa spring to mind), so that there's a good choice of performance compound pads (they might need a stroke or two with the file at the backplates to fit, though). Ferodo DS2500s are a firm favourite with the Saab performance crowd.
900T16 Convertibles of that era are indeed rated at 160 bhp; it was only the T16S tintops that got thier power upgraded to 170 or 175 bhp by that time, after the drop from 175 to 160 bhp because of the catalytic converter. A 'red box' APC (boost controller) upgrade (which a fair proportion of cars have fitted) takes 160 bhp models to 175 or 185 bhp, and 175 bhp models to 185. The now-defunct Trent Saab specialist/tuning outfit (now TSL Subaru) had a very effective Stage 1 kit rated at 220 bhp. It consisted of an APC upgrade, uprated (recirculating) dump valve, rising rate fuel pressure regulator and full stainless steel exhaust system. The likes of Matt_FP should still be able to knock a similar package up for you at a reasonable rate.
Oh, 'Turbo S' is what it says on the rear lids/tailgates of T16S models of that age (Aero bodykit, three spoke alloys, uprated springs/shocks, sway bars front and rear). It's a bit misleading for the convertible as they didn't get the sports suspension pack (Saab reckoned the convertible body too 'soft' for such an aggressive supension set up) and it should be 175 bhp to be a '92 T16S, not 160.
NiceCupOfTea said:
Eric - 220bhp just from APC exhaust and FPR? I thought I'd need an FMIC to get that sort of power?
My friend's 900T16S with the Trent Saab Stage 1 kit made about 195 bhp at the wheels on a saab rolling road day here, goes kile a scalded cat and routinely clocks 235-240 km/h on the speedo, so I have no reason to dispute Trent Saab's claim. Only 'problem' with that car is is that it tends to go out of tune between services (ignition timing & fuel pressure).
TBH I consider most FMIC conversions out there as pure hack mods - evidence about improved performance is mostly anecdotal. The positioning of the stock IC is far better than all the intenet inuendo would have you believe - Saab did have the advantage of aerodynamic testing facilities where a DIY 'tuner'tends not to.
There is actually a cleanly defined airflow path from the hole in the bumper/spoiler below the headlight to the IC. I also patently don't like the long and contorted piping one needs to get to a FMIC location in front of the coolant radiator, the fact that the iC *sits* in front of the radiator, the cutting into the transverse rad support beam and the cheapness/ bad flow characteristics of the commonly used 9000 IC's. IMO if upgrading the IC, either you take a properly deisgned, low, wide aftermarket core with end tanks at the top and bottom (one could also take two 900 IC cores side by side for that), or a liquid/air IC system (high efficiency, high flow, short pipe runs).
Interesting!
Do you have the standard i/c setup in yours then? I must admit I had wondered about the amount of lag the long pipes would create, but mine does seem to saturate ever so easily. Is there anything I can do to improve the situation?
Plus, given that I don't want to move the battery out of the engine compartment where could I relocate the battery to (if not the space occupied by the standard intercooler). I assume raising the battery tray to go above the elbow/downpipe would not be a good move. How about a high capacity gel battery?
Do you have the standard i/c setup in yours then? I must admit I had wondered about the amount of lag the long pipes would create, but mine does seem to saturate ever so easily. Is there anything I can do to improve the situation?
Plus, given that I don't want to move the battery out of the engine compartment where could I relocate the battery to (if not the space occupied by the standard intercooler). I assume raising the battery tray to go above the elbow/downpipe would not be a good move. How about a high capacity gel battery?
Got a custom liquid/air IC in Saabine. Works well.
At a more sensible level, strapping a fan to the IC does tend to help with core saturation. Although I kind of doubt the many reports of people experiencing massive core saturation on their c900s as I can't remember it ever having been such an issue on mine back then - you might want to take an intake temp probe to the intake post-IC to see for yourself whether that is the problem.
I bet though, what a lot of c900 guys see as core saturation issues is the boost dropping back to sensible levels after huge overshoots. That, and the inadequacies of the stock igntion which relies on rather crude mechanical vacuum advance/ boost retard controls.
At a more sensible level, strapping a fan to the IC does tend to help with core saturation. Although I kind of doubt the many reports of people experiencing massive core saturation on their c900s as I can't remember it ever having been such an issue on mine back then - you might want to take an intake temp probe to the intake post-IC to see for yourself whether that is the problem.
I bet though, what a lot of c900 guys see as core saturation issues is the boost dropping back to sensible levels after huge overshoots. That, and the inadequacies of the stock igntion which relies on rather crude mechanical vacuum advance/ boost retard controls.
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