French bureaucracy - registering a car - slight rant!!

[Marcellus]

OK I was wrong..... I've often said that we're not had any major issues with the french and their bureaucracy it's simple you research the system and then comply....... but this one is frustrating me;

The process is simple (I thought)
1) write to manufacturer, send them money and they give you a certificate of conformity
2) get headlights changed.
3) Get car Controle Techniqued.
4) Go to regional finance office and with reciept of purchase showing VAT paid
5) Go to prefecture with all paperwork and hey presto a Carte Gris is issued.

Simples, or so I thought!!

1) check - wrote to LandRover France and they sent me the certificate
2) check - did actually get anyone to officially confirm this though
3) lost a day trying to get this done... yes my headlight alignment was correct but they wanted proof I had LHD lights fitted........ surely their measurement things can see if I have or hadn't.. au contraiire I need to be able to prove it....... in the end I went to my friendly landie independant garage who came with me to the CT centre and just told them that he'd changed them... then the tossers issued my CT..... even though the garage hadn't touched the lights!!!
4) check - relatively painless after a friend told me to make sure I took a nicely printed reciept with lots of numbers and a separate line showing VAT @ 17.5% and dated at least 9 months ago... worked a treat.

so 4/5 on teh home straight now........ to the prefecture...... handed over all forms spoke nicely had a laugh and then woman behind desk asked for my "justicative de residence".... bks what would they accept.. anything they say... so cheque book "non", sport insurance "non", mobile phone bill "non", passport "non", rental agreement "non" they then send us away to get some justicative but everything else is ok.

That night download a RIB, internet and France Telecom bills and the next day back to prefecture...... they're not happy.. all my justicatives are downloaded bills and not bills coming through the post they would not budge and despite me trying my bestest french resorted to everytime I opened my mouth coming back with a look of incromprehension and a "pardon, je ne comprend pas" followed by speaking at me at 110kmh without pausing for breath and ignoring my "deucements s'il vous plait" which only made them speak even faster........

I was saved by another "customer" who so happened to be French who started to argue on my behalf joined by others in the queue behind.. eventually madame le fking prefecture accepted the point that no-one has bills delivered anymore as we were all trying to save the planet and paper was worthless, here were 3 separate justifacatives so tick the box....... hooray finally box ticked, all is in order take a seat....

I sat, I waited, I sat, I waited, prefecture shut for lunch... I was booted out come back at 15:00!!

Went back at 15:00.... more sitting, more waiting, 16:30 my name was called.......... there was a problem (surprise, surprise) my certificate de conformite didn't actually have my chassis number on it!!

Seven fking hours it took for madame le fking prefecture to realise this!!

SHe had the letter "dear Mr P pleas efind attached your certificate de confirmite for your land rover defender registration number, chassis number" but these were on the covering letter not on the certificate itself....

Sensing my annoyance she suggested that teh local dealer might be able to help eve... so next day off to landie dealer....... who took certificate, took biro and wrote my chassis number in the gap!!

That afternoon back I go to see madame........ she seems pleased, she seems happy, she apologises for yesterday and tries to justify her position... she asks for justicative de fking residence......... then again we start the arguement about not having been posted but downloaded so therefore not valid!!

I have to admit I I lost the plot and I think she learnt some english words, lots of banging counters and overshouting in different languages and eventually the supervisor arrived... who spoke very good english and conceaded that this time they would accept downloaded justicatives.. my certificate de conformite appeared to be in order and would I take a seat.

I sat, I waited, I sat and waited some more..... prefecture closed and I was asked to leave..

Next morning 09:00 there I was 1st in queue for my carte gris, same woman, same desk, same smile and asked me to sit and wait..............

Imagine my surprise when 5 minutes later I was called...

But guess what.... yep another problem!!

My certificate de conformite wasn't right... it wasn't the original!!

It was the master copy photocopied with my details written on.. which we knew all along the ink of the chassis number was obviously hand written but the signature on the certificate was a copy therefore not an original, the letter sent with it was an original but the cert wasn't.... how did they know the certificate related to my car!!

So where do I go from here??

I've been in touch with Land Rover France and they say they never send out unquiely signed or stamped certificates.. now for their classic suggestion.... why don't I create a certificate de conformite myslelf I know the layout and detail and sign it myself?

I'm still in two minds as to whether to do this or not and guess if I do then I should leave it some time (Possibly weeks) so make out I've got it from Land Rover..


But what an absolute waste of time and effort!!

[neil-f]

What a waste of time.

We are not resident in France our house is only for holidays but the Defender I use in the Alps in winter will stay UK reg if this is the is what I have to look forward to! (we bring it back in the spring for MOT etc).

[PottyMouth]

Hi Marcellus

Where are you based? If you are anywhere near Bordeaux perhaps I could lend a hand?

PM me :-)

[Marcellus]

Neil - you should be ok, I think the issue with residency was that I've done a short term move so not actually got any utility bills in my own name as I agreed with teh land lord that he's keep them in his name which is what started to make them awkward and it's been down hill since then.

I'm up in the Haute Savioe so using the Bonneville office.

[neil-f]

Marcellus said:

Neil - you should be ok, I think the issue with residency was that I've done a short term move so not actually got any utility bills in my own name as I agreed with teh land lord that he's keep them in his name which is what started to make them awkward and it's been down hill since then.

I'm up in the Haute Savioe so using the Bonneville office.

Ah I see I do have electric etc in my name.
I am in the Drome dept 26.
Hope you get it sorted.

[penryar]

Hi Marcellus, have you got the contact details for LR France? I've got to get a CoC for my Disco and the details of who to get in touch with at LR would be a great help.

Cheers

Steve

[Marcellus]

penryar said:

Hi Marcellus, have you got the contact details for LR France? I've got to get a CoC for my Disco and the details of who to get in touch with at LR would be a great help.

Cheers

Steve

LAND ROVER FRANCE
Service Homologation
34, Rue de la Criox de Fer
CS 70337
78105
Saint-Germain-en-Laye Cedex


You need to write to them with a cheque for €180 giving them your a copy of your Vin plate, date of 1st registration, I'll pm you a template letter my mechanic gave me.

edited to add that your email address isn't correct and I can't pm you... please send me your email address and I'll reply with the letter

Edited by Marcellus on Friday 4th September 11:55

[Le TVR]

Marcellus said:

The process is simple (I thought)

You clearly havent lived here very long....

Marcellus said:

1) write to manufacturer, send them money and they give you a certificate of conformity
2) get headlights changed.
3) Get car Controle Techniqued.
4) Go to regional finance office and with reciept of purchase showing VAT paid
5) Go to prefecture with all paperwork and hey presto a Carte Gris is issued.

1) Phone Lotus and they sent me the CdeC (before I had finally purchased the car!)
2) LHD headlights on back order. None available for months.
3) Explained to CT station and they passed the car with just the beam deflectors fitted.
4) Got Quittus Fiscal
5) Prefecture said "we cant issue a CG because their database has the model code as '82' and the CdeC stated '082' (082 is correct).

There will always be something

[Driller]

I bought my first Tiger in June 2002 and came over in September. They wanted me to get the English VAT refunded and pay French VAT as I was obviously trying to get around the French VAT system

bds!

[Marcellus]

Driller said:

I bought my first Tiger in June 2002 and came over in September. They wanted me to get the English VAT refunded and pay French VAT as I was obviously trying to get around the French VAT system

bds!

nah nah nah nah.... if you buy something in one member state for personal use and then move to another member state you don't have to do that provided you can prove you paid vat in the 1st member state and have owned it for longer than a certain period of time before you tried to export it.....

Edited by Marcellus on Wednesday 9th September 17:27

[Driller]

Marcellus said:

Driller said:

I bought my first Tiger in June 2002 and came over in September. They wanted me to get the English VAT refunded and pay French VAT as I was obviously trying to get around the French VAT system

bds!

nah nah nah nah.... if you buy something in one member state for personal use and then move to another member state you don't have to do that provided you can prove you paid vat in the 1st member state and have owned it for longer than a certain period of time before you tried to export it.....

Edited by Marcellus on Wednesday 9th September 17:27

Well I bought the bike in June and emigrated in September so maybe that's what they objected to...

In contrast, getting the Conseil de L'Ordre to recognise my dental degree was an exercise in portions of cakage.

Going back to what you were saying though about being encouraged to falsify the certificate. Isn't it just typical that with all the rules and regulations, people don't follow them and step outside the law to get things done efficiently and this is accepted practice.

Drives me mad.

Edited by Driller on Wednesday 9th September 18:22

[bobt]

I think the issue is there are some difficult people in the prefectures, who for wahtever reason are anti roastbif. I have had a little run around, but nothing significant on the two cars I have imported (one disco TD5 Now for sale), and one 535D (not for sale). Both were done at the prefecture on the first visit ( although I did have the correct paperwork, but a I guess just a generic CoC Disco from LR UK in english)

A lttle more difficult with my Brian James trailer. Was sent from the prefecture to the DRIRE offices (like weights and measures department). They are the people who will inspect the trailer. I di not have a CofC fo the trailer as Brian James wanted 250 gbp for one, so I may have to get creative with my John Bull printing set (I just need an eaxample trailer CofC.

I think if you go in and speak French, then you will find things are much easier. If you struggle then get a French friend to go in with you.

[HappyGoLucky]

I think it's down to the direction of the wind at the time your request lands on the prefectures desk.

When reregistering the M5 and our Rover 216, did items 1-4 as per above list for each then posted it all off - to save 2 hr drive.

Next day Rovers docs all came back as a box hadn't been ticked on a form - they'd helpfully circled the box I hadn't ticked to make sure I didn't make the same mistake. Packaged it all up again and posted it all off.

A week later both lots of docs come back. The cheque I'd written out for the Rover was wrong as they'd told me the wrong amount. Writes new cheques budles up whole dossier again and looks to see what's wrong with BMW stuff. It would seem they are confused as nowwhere of the CoC does it state what side the steering wheel is, and they now also want to confirm if the speedo reads in KMH (although there is a report from Bayern Auto in Bordeaux confirming this) Call prefecture and ask what I need to do next and they say I have to wait for the DRIRE to contact me and do whatever they ask. So I post off Rovers docs and wait.

The following week a crispy new Carte Gris arrives for the Rover, not bad three weeks and numerous trips to La Poste, but it's done.

Another week passes and I hear nothing about the M5 so I call the precture again and they say the matter is now with DRIRE and I should contact them. I do and they claim to know nothing about me or my car. This runs for three months with each party blaming the other. The Maire intervenes on my behalf and things seem to be moving again. I'm to wait for an appointment at the inspection centre in La Rochelle. Once more, weeks become months so I again call on the good graces of Monsieur Le Maire. His secretary calls back and says that I've an appointment for the next day at 11.45 excellent.

Good excuse for a day out in La Rochelle, drive there, inspection, nice lunch by the marina & slow pituresque route home. Perfect. No.

Arrive at inspection centre(think HGV testing centre)early. There are two identical brand new Bin trucks ahead of us in the queue it's 11.30, there seems to be some disagreement as to the type of the rear light cluster on one truck compared to the other, the drivers are explaining that the manufacturer has changed the light clusters and truck x is wearing the new type. It's 11.50. Man from DRIRE is non plussed by the expanation and wants a letter clariying the postion from the truck builders. Queue much more arguing and gesticulation along with someone coming to ask me to move the car as they were closing the centre for lunch. What about my appointment? I was politely told that as I had missed it I'd have to make another for later in the week.

I tried calmly at first to explain that I'd driven two hours to be there, had arrived early and had only missed my slot due to the fracas ahead of me. Reluctanlty I was told they'd try to accomodate me after lunch but couldn't promise how long I'd have to wait. Lovely lunch ruined by me spouting off about fonctionairres and bureaucracy in general. 16:30 Napoleon finally deigns to come to see us in the side bay we'd been directed to and with much irritation he confirms that yes the sterring wheel is indeed where the BMW dealer had said it was, and that the speedo did show KMH. He asked me to prepare a cheque for 89€ and for me to open the bonnet and start the engine. He looked at the engine, said it was a thing of beauty and walked off. After 5 minutes stood there bonnet up engine idling I went over the the office whereby I was handed a receipt and dismissed.

Took the auto route home tore the arse off the poor M5 and scowled at Mrs HGL when she even thought about saying anything about my aggressive driving. Start to finish the process took 6 months.

As for the the other car we transferred - All I'll say on the matter is that it involved the same jumped up little tw@t in La Rochelle. Conflicting CoC's from Toyota France and Toyota UK. The (permanent) removal of rear seats and belts and the (temporary) changing of the wheels and tyres to suit the image of what the man from DRIRE thought a 1989 SWB Landcruiser should look like. 9 months that one took.

Oddly though the three people I know who've brought Citroens over all had their C in a week!

[JelsT5]

The bureacracy can be a nightmare regarding cars it seems; no doubt about our Gallic friends loving their red tape! Sorry to hear some of you guys have had to put up with some serious cr@p!

I live in Metz, 57 and no trouble at all bringing my modded T5 into the country- just changed the lights to LHD, CT, cert of conformity, job done in a couple of days. The CoC was the worst bit , waiting for 3 weeks for Volvo France to send it to us.

I think it really is luck of the draw and who you happen have sat in front of you at the Prefecture on the day. Planning on bringing a Chim or similar into the country next year.

Out of interest has anyone had any experience tried getting a modded Pulsar Gtir or Evo registered here?

Edited by JelsT5 on Sunday 27th September 14:33

[HappyGoLucky]

JelsT5 said:

Out of interest has anyone had any experience tried getting a modded Pulsar Gtir or Evo registered here?

If they are Jap grey import into UK it's harder as with our shorty, but then I think it does come down to luck of the draw on who sees the dossier first.

[Cheeseybit]

A slight highjack, but is there really any need to register in France? I moved here earlier this year from Austria, and have got the paperwork from BMW to start the ball rolling, but really can't see how I gain by going through all the hassle. Am I missing something by keeping the car on Austrian plates?

[neil-f]

Cheeseybit said:

A slight highjack, but is there really any need to register in France? I moved here earlier this year from Austria, and have got the paperwork from BMW to start the ball rolling, but really can't see how I gain by going through all the hassle. Am I missing something by keeping the car on Austrian plates?

If you keep the car in France for more than 6 months you should register it but it seems lots don't!

If you are not registered you won't get any fixed camera fines

[Cheeseybit]

So it would be very unethical for me not to register it then. I'll do it straight away. Don't want the French authorities not getting what they could be owed

[Driller]

What about insurance? If the insurance company find out you live in france and that you've been there for more than a certain time, won't they refuse to pay out?

Imagine if the worst should happen and you're not covered?

[PottyMouth]

Insurance companies will generally cover your third party liability whatever happens - so as long as you don't mind paying to repair your own vehicle in the event of a collision you should be ok. If that happens though, they will almost certainly refuse to cover you any longer.