French Renovation
Discussion
Very tentatively looking at a property that needs a full renovation. It's about 150 years old and needs a lot of work but there are no significant restrictions in place about what I can do other than wanting to stay friendly with people in the village by not trashing it completely. It's local to me so I already know plenty of potential local trades but I'm wondering if anyone has any advice for the best way to manage this in France, working with a general contractor, architect, project manager or some other approach. Unfortunately I have neither the skills nor time to do much of the work myself unlike some of the amazing projects I've seen on here although there is a small outbuilding that I'm hoping to use as a learning project.
Hopefully I'll share a build project thread on here but negotiations are a little long winded. If it comes off it won't be before middle of next year so I have time to plan carefully for once.
Hopefully I'll share a build project thread on here but negotiations are a little long winded. If it comes off it won't be before middle of next year so I have time to plan carefully for once.
Personally I'd go to the local mayors office with the agents details and an idea of what you want to do or change , you may very well get away with a sketch and a description of materials and colours . Your chosen builder should be able to manage the project from there .
I've extended and built new and didn't use an architect either time , just a ruler and pen for the plans and filled a pretty basic form in that was supplied by the mayor .
Both times all that was checked after I submitted the completion form was the size of the buildings and positions on the plot by the regions geometric guys .
I've sold both houses without problem so it must have been the correct procedure !
Good luck
I've extended and built new and didn't use an architect either time , just a ruler and pen for the plans and filled a pretty basic form in that was supplied by the mayor .
Both times all that was checked after I submitted the completion form was the size of the buildings and positions on the plot by the regions geometric guys .
I've sold both houses without problem so it must have been the correct procedure !
Good luck
zbc said:
Very tentatively looking at a property that needs a full renovation. It's about 150 years old and needs a lot of work but there are no significant restrictions in place about what I can do other than wanting to stay friendly with people in the village by not trashing it completely. It's local to me so I already know plenty of potential local trades but I'm wondering if anyone has any advice for the best way to manage this in France, working with a general contractor, architect, project manager or some other approach. Unfortunately I have neither the skills nor time to do much of the work myself unlike some of the amazing projects I've seen on here although there is a small outbuilding that I'm hoping to use as a learning project.
Hopefully I'll share a build project thread on here but negotiations are a little long winded. If it comes off it won't be before middle of next year so I have time to plan carefully for once.
As others has said it's prudent to make sure you can achieve what you want to do with the house. Don't listen to an estate agent as he will just tell you what you want to hear.Hopefully I'll share a build project thread on here but negotiations are a little long winded. If it comes off it won't be before middle of next year so I have time to plan carefully for once.
A dual language general contractor is a way to go,even if your French is also good. You have mentioned that you won't have time to manage the project.
But you will have to give clear instruction to the person acting for you. This person should be able to assist with thier own input also.
Ultimately it's the budget that will dictate where you go with this.
A contractor/manager should also be able to be very hands on so he can provide assistance and preparation for the incoming tradesmen.
I imagine you already know about a "Devi contract" so it would be prudent to insert a starting date clause that gives you the chance to bin them if they don't honour the dates etc.
Feel free to pop me an email if you need any more help etc.
We had our house that was literally falling down having been unloved in for maybe 35 years totally rebuilt 6-7 years ago. Although I'm comfortable with the language we ended up using an architect who pretty much managed the whole thing. She delivered the house on-time, charged a fixed fee and clearly had clout with the tradesmen. Cost is another matter and we did the house as a place to enjoy our retirement in, not to obtain financial return.
If you pm me I'm more than happy to talk about our experience.
Cheers
Philip
If you pm me I'm more than happy to talk about our experience.
Cheers
Philip
My recommendation would be to employ a Maitre d'oeuvre batiment.
I knew exactly what I wanted, but could earn a lot more working, than I paid him and his team to realise my project (10% of contract value). I did all the basic design down to light switch positions, he produced the working drawings.
He also got all the approvals and provided an accurate estimate and when the Tenders were returned, it was not much different - he always promised there would be “no big surprisesl.
He could also advise on things like - the lowest electrical contractor price looked fine, but the guy had just won a big contract in a neighbouring town which would stretch him and the second lowest was not significantly different, so we used him.
He also influenced how each contractor would work (I had individual contracts with each trade - 11 in total) so if he said you will come next Monday and achieve x,y and z, then that happened.
So the upshot was that my project was completed to a high standard, on time and on budget.
Conversely, I would not particularly recommend using an Architect, they are primarily artists and generally not very good with your money and communicating with tradesmen - they often use a separate project manager and / or Quantity Surveyor.
You know what you want to do, you just want the best job, for the best price.
My word of caution would be that with a new build, it is possible to know precise costs once you are out of the ground. With a major renovation, it is much harder to predict what will happen when you start to demolish walls and start to discover latent defects in the original structure or other damage over the years.
The U.K. system where a main trade, joiner, brickie etc gets his mates to do plumbing, electric and plastering does not seem to be the normal method of doing things here.
I knew exactly what I wanted, but could earn a lot more working, than I paid him and his team to realise my project (10% of contract value). I did all the basic design down to light switch positions, he produced the working drawings.
He also got all the approvals and provided an accurate estimate and when the Tenders were returned, it was not much different - he always promised there would be “no big surprisesl.
He could also advise on things like - the lowest electrical contractor price looked fine, but the guy had just won a big contract in a neighbouring town which would stretch him and the second lowest was not significantly different, so we used him.
He also influenced how each contractor would work (I had individual contracts with each trade - 11 in total) so if he said you will come next Monday and achieve x,y and z, then that happened.
So the upshot was that my project was completed to a high standard, on time and on budget.
Conversely, I would not particularly recommend using an Architect, they are primarily artists and generally not very good with your money and communicating with tradesmen - they often use a separate project manager and / or Quantity Surveyor.
You know what you want to do, you just want the best job, for the best price.
My word of caution would be that with a new build, it is possible to know precise costs once you are out of the ground. With a major renovation, it is much harder to predict what will happen when you start to demolish walls and start to discover latent defects in the original structure or other damage over the years.
The U.K. system where a main trade, joiner, brickie etc gets his mates to do plumbing, electric and plastering does not seem to be the normal method of doing things here.
Thanks to all of you for your advice so far. I probably should have been clearer and said that we already live in France and near the planned acquisition. I was really pleased to see the "see the mayor" advice is that is what we tell people who ask us about living in France. I hadn't thought of it particularly in this context but would have done it at some point but I'll push it up the list now.
It might not be straightaway but I'll be in touch with those who offered as the project progresses. It's likely to be a renovate and extend but I like the sound of a Maitre d'oeuvre batiment but I'm happy to consider the other options. The building will almost certainly need new insulation and heating and I'm keen to look at options like Heat Pumps and solar panels, would the Maitre d'oeuvre have enough technical skills for that too?
It might not be straightaway but I'll be in touch with those who offered as the project progresses. It's likely to be a renovate and extend but I like the sound of a Maitre d'oeuvre batiment but I'm happy to consider the other options. The building will almost certainly need new insulation and heating and I'm keen to look at options like Heat Pumps and solar panels, would the Maitre d'oeuvre have enough technical skills for that too?
zbc said:
Thanks to all of you for your advice so far. I probably should have been clearer and said that we already live in France and near the planned acquisition. I was really pleased to see the "see the mayor" advice is that is what we tell people who ask us about living in France. I hadn't thought of it particularly in this context but would have done it at some point but I'll push it up the list now.
It might not be straightaway but I'll be in touch with those who offered as the project progresses. It's likely to be a renovate and extend but I like the sound of a Maitre d'oeuvre batiment but I'm happy to consider the other options. The building will almost certainly need new insulation and heating and I'm keen to look at options like Heat Pumps and solar panels, would the Maitre d'oeuvre have enough technical skills for that too?
The Maitre d'oeuvre probably won't have the skills - that's not really his job. His job is to find a reliable artisan who has said skills and to get the job done on budget and on timeIt might not be straightaway but I'll be in touch with those who offered as the project progresses. It's likely to be a renovate and extend but I like the sound of a Maitre d'oeuvre batiment but I'm happy to consider the other options. The building will almost certainly need new insulation and heating and I'm keen to look at options like Heat Pumps and solar panels, would the Maitre d'oeuvre have enough technical skills for that too?
Rushjob said:
zbc said:
Thanks to all of you for your advice so far. I probably should have been clearer and said that we already live in France and near the planned acquisition. I was really pleased to see the "see the mayor" advice is that is what we tell people who ask us about living in France. I hadn't thought of it particularly in this context but would have done it at some point but I'll push it up the list now.
It might not be straightaway but I'll be in touch with those who offered as the project progresses. It's likely to be a renovate and extend but I like the sound of a Maitre d'oeuvre batiment but I'm happy to consider the other options. The building will almost certainly need new insulation and heating and I'm keen to look at options like Heat Pumps and solar panels, would the Maitre d'oeuvre have enough technical skills for that too?
The Maitre d'oeuvre probably won't have the skills - that's not really his job. His job is to find a reliable artisan who has said skills and to get the job done on budget and on timeIt might not be straightaway but I'll be in touch with those who offered as the project progresses. It's likely to be a renovate and extend but I like the sound of a Maitre d'oeuvre batiment but I'm happy to consider the other options. The building will almost certainly need new insulation and heating and I'm keen to look at options like Heat Pumps and solar panels, would the Maitre d'oeuvre have enough technical skills for that too?
What you don’t want is someone who says it must be an underfloor system when that means destroying existing finishes and then they offer to concrete the floors and plaster the walls for you. It just muddies what should be clear water, for each trade.
rdjohn said:
I would expect a decent MdO to have the skill to specify an effective system, and then seek competitive quotations from 2, or 3 suitably qualified contractors. The enterprise that installed my plumbing and heating 15-years ago are now well into alternative sources. They also have the clout to receive decent discounts on equipment, perhaps more important than their hourly labour rate.
What you don’t want is someone who says it must be an underfloor system when that means destroying existing finishes and then they offer to concrete the floors and plaster the walls for you. It just muddies what should be clear water, for each trade.
Yes, I could have worded my response a bit better - agree with how you've put itWhat you don’t want is someone who says it must be an underfloor system when that means destroying existing finishes and then they offer to concrete the floors and plaster the walls for you. It just muddies what should be clear water, for each trade.
ZBC
You have found a very knowledgeable group with your post.. esp with RdJohn, paulwirral, magoo, smiffy... who I have followed on other threads... very good advice.. from these chaps.
We're on French Renovation 2. Trying to apply all our learnings from Renovation 1.
Renovation 1
My thesis was that I haven't spent 20 year watching all the mistakes on Grand Designs not to learn from them... Like you, I can earn more doing what I do, to pay for professionals vs me messing it up.. costing 3x more and losing revenue.
We used an English architect, though deeply immersed (25years) in France...He drew up the plans, spoke to the Mairie and put the job out to tender... Mason, Electrician, Plumber, Tiler, Carpenter, Joiner. he managed the artisans and timing/ sequence, we met monthly and the project was delivered largely without any pain. RDJ.. I agree they are artists... but our building needed that artistry and he found design solutions, we hadn't even thought of. I spoke to 2 previous clients to understand his project management skills... they were fine... 4 years down the line, I still can't fault the overall job.
I guess it depends on the job... either way a Project Manager , architect or not is essential.
Renovation 2
Slightly different approach, we're doing this one in phases.. We're now sufficiently confident to manage various trades for the preparation. but will revert back to the architect model for the main job.
We also learned it is a good thing to get the immediate neighbours involved in some way.. show them round, show them the plans, stress the use of local artisans.. good for local economy etc. things are just a bit easier... no complaints when a concrete mixer blocks the road for an hour...we share odd jobs out to the locals: making shutters, bit of ground work, various repairs ... yes you can scrump my fruit trees when we're not there.. etc etc It all helps.
Both of these houses don't have an investment criteria or planned return..I do over spec them as they are retreats, a place to escape to.. The villagers have never seen a boiling water tap or a 4 post lift in the barn..
I think its going to be a good decade or so before the value breaks even with the restoration costs... for that reason ... it might be worth seeking out English, German or Dutch renovations..for sale locally to benchmark..
You have found a very knowledgeable group with your post.. esp with RdJohn, paulwirral, magoo, smiffy... who I have followed on other threads... very good advice.. from these chaps.
We're on French Renovation 2. Trying to apply all our learnings from Renovation 1.
Renovation 1
My thesis was that I haven't spent 20 year watching all the mistakes on Grand Designs not to learn from them... Like you, I can earn more doing what I do, to pay for professionals vs me messing it up.. costing 3x more and losing revenue.
We used an English architect, though deeply immersed (25years) in France...He drew up the plans, spoke to the Mairie and put the job out to tender... Mason, Electrician, Plumber, Tiler, Carpenter, Joiner. he managed the artisans and timing/ sequence, we met monthly and the project was delivered largely without any pain. RDJ.. I agree they are artists... but our building needed that artistry and he found design solutions, we hadn't even thought of. I spoke to 2 previous clients to understand his project management skills... they were fine... 4 years down the line, I still can't fault the overall job.
I guess it depends on the job... either way a Project Manager , architect or not is essential.
Renovation 2
Slightly different approach, we're doing this one in phases.. We're now sufficiently confident to manage various trades for the preparation. but will revert back to the architect model for the main job.
We also learned it is a good thing to get the immediate neighbours involved in some way.. show them round, show them the plans, stress the use of local artisans.. good for local economy etc. things are just a bit easier... no complaints when a concrete mixer blocks the road for an hour...we share odd jobs out to the locals: making shutters, bit of ground work, various repairs ... yes you can scrump my fruit trees when we're not there.. etc etc It all helps.
Both of these houses don't have an investment criteria or planned return..I do over spec them as they are retreats, a place to escape to.. The villagers have never seen a boiling water tap or a 4 post lift in the barn..
I think its going to be a good decade or so before the value breaks even with the restoration costs... for that reason ... it might be worth seeking out English, German or Dutch renovations..for sale locally to benchmark..
smifffymoto said:
Why do you want the property?
Do you want to move or do it up and sell it on. You could land yourself with some headaches and tax bills.
It's not an investment, probably the opposite. We moved ere many years ago expecting to only be here a few years so we bought a house that just works but has some issues. Now we've realised that we quite like it here so we're looking for the right house and we really like this one. Fortunately I think we can buy and renovate whilst we stay in our current house. Do you want to move or do it up and sell it on. You could land yourself with some headaches and tax bills.
AndrewCrown said:
ZBC
You have found a very knowledgeable group with your post.. esp with RdJohn, paulwirral, magoo, smiffy... who I have followed on other threads... very good advice.. from these chaps.
We're on French Renovation 2. Trying to apply all our learnings from Renovation 1.
Renovation 1
My thesis was that I haven't spent 20 year watching all the mistakes on Grand Designs not to learn from them... Like you, I can earn more doing what I do, to pay for professionals vs me messing it up.. costing 3x more and losing revenue.
We used an English architect, though deeply immersed (25years) in France...He drew up the plans, spoke to the Mairie and put the job out to tender... Mason, Electrician, Plumber, Tiler, Carpenter, Joiner. he managed the artisans and timing/ sequence, we met monthly and the project was delivered largely without any pain. RDJ.. I agree they are artists... but our building needed that artistry and he found design solutions, we hadn't even thought of. I spoke to 2 previous clients to understand his project management skills... they were fine... 4 years down the line, I still can't fault the overall job.
I guess it depends on the job... either way a Project Manager , architect or not is essential.
Renovation 2
Slightly different approach, we're doing this one in phases.. We're now sufficiently confident to manage various trades for the preparation. but will revert back to the architect model for the main job.
We also learned it is a good thing to get the immediate neighbours involved in some way.. show them round, show them the plans, stress the use of local artisans.. good for local economy etc. things are just a bit easier... no complaints when a concrete mixer blocks the road for an hour...we share odd jobs out to the locals: making shutters, bit of ground work, various repairs ... yes you can scrump my fruit trees when we're not there.. etc etc It all helps.
Both of these houses don't have an investment criteria or planned return..I do over spec them as they are retreats, a place to escape to.. The villagers have never seen a boiling water tap or a 4 post lift in the barn..
I think its going to be a good decade or so before the value breaks even with the restoration costs... for that reason ... it might be worth seeking out English, German or Dutch renovations..for sale locally to benchmark..
Thanks Andrew. Again all good advice and much appreciated.You have found a very knowledgeable group with your post.. esp with RdJohn, paulwirral, magoo, smiffy... who I have followed on other threads... very good advice.. from these chaps.
We're on French Renovation 2. Trying to apply all our learnings from Renovation 1.
Renovation 1
My thesis was that I haven't spent 20 year watching all the mistakes on Grand Designs not to learn from them... Like you, I can earn more doing what I do, to pay for professionals vs me messing it up.. costing 3x more and losing revenue.
We used an English architect, though deeply immersed (25years) in France...He drew up the plans, spoke to the Mairie and put the job out to tender... Mason, Electrician, Plumber, Tiler, Carpenter, Joiner. he managed the artisans and timing/ sequence, we met monthly and the project was delivered largely without any pain. RDJ.. I agree they are artists... but our building needed that artistry and he found design solutions, we hadn't even thought of. I spoke to 2 previous clients to understand his project management skills... they were fine... 4 years down the line, I still can't fault the overall job.
I guess it depends on the job... either way a Project Manager , architect or not is essential.
Renovation 2
Slightly different approach, we're doing this one in phases.. We're now sufficiently confident to manage various trades for the preparation. but will revert back to the architect model for the main job.
We also learned it is a good thing to get the immediate neighbours involved in some way.. show them round, show them the plans, stress the use of local artisans.. good for local economy etc. things are just a bit easier... no complaints when a concrete mixer blocks the road for an hour...we share odd jobs out to the locals: making shutters, bit of ground work, various repairs ... yes you can scrump my fruit trees when we're not there.. etc etc It all helps.
Both of these houses don't have an investment criteria or planned return..I do over spec them as they are retreats, a place to escape to.. The villagers have never seen a boiling water tap or a 4 post lift in the barn..
I think its going to be a good decade or so before the value breaks even with the restoration costs... for that reason ... it might be worth seeking out English, German or Dutch renovations..for sale locally to benchmark..
zbc said:
smifffymoto said:
Why do you want the property?
Do you want to move or do it up and sell it on. You could land yourself with some headaches and tax bills.
It's not an investment, probably the opposite. We moved ere many years ago expecting to only be here a few years so we bought a house that just works but has some issues. Now we've realised that we quite like it here so we're looking for the right house and we really like this one. Fortunately I think we can buy and renovate whilst we stay in our current house. Do you want to move or do it up and sell it on. You could land yourself with some headaches and tax bills.
Like I said,I’m no expert.
smifffymoto said:
I don’t know the full ins and outs but if you renovate and move into the new house,it becomes your principle residence,your old house becomes a maison secondaire which will attract tax if there is a capital gain.There will be a period of grace but how long it is ,I don’t know.
Like I said,I’m no expert.
I've researched this a bit and it is a year as long as the house is empty and on the market. On the other hand I think that we could keep living in the old house even if the new one is finished and only actually move out when it's sold, so effectively the new house would be the maison secondaire but then we'd move to it permanently. It would be a shame not to get the benefit of the new house but it's within walking distance of where we are now so I'm sure we'd get plenty of enjoyment from it still and hopefully not take too long to sell the old one.Like I said,I’m no expert.
Things are progressing and more details to follow including soon some pictures. I was a little vague before but the reason for that is that the building we are looking to renovate is the local school and there were some serious discussions going on at the Conseil to decide if they wanted to sell it and although I'm fairly sure none of them are on PH I don't want to take any risks. Meanwhile I have a little puzzle for you. As they've decided they will sell to us they have lent us the keys to spend some time in it and go look with some experts which we've started with. There are some beautiful cellars under part of the building but only part which I thought was odd. In part of the wall there are three little holes with metal blanking plates and I wonder what they are. one plate is missing and it has what looks like ash behind it. Could it be an old flue or similar from an old heating system and if so I wonder if there could be more cellar behind the wall?
CELLARS (very dry)
MYSTERIOUS METAL PLATES
CELLARS (very dry)
MYSTERIOUS METAL PLATES
Rushjob said:
The plates are access points to clean out flues - hence the ash
Thanks Rushjob that's what I'd assumed but do you have any idea where the fire would have been? Does it mean there is a furnace behind the wall and this is the easiest way to access the flue or as these are in the basement would the fire have been somewhere on the floor above and this was just an easy access place to access the flue above. And why would there be three? It's not a huge building just 100m2 or so on ground floor. I can't see it needing a huge furnace. I'm just nervous in case there are any well hidden nasty surprises ahead.Either on the other side of the wall, but that's unlikely if there's no access or they could be the bottom of flues for fireplaces / cookers etc on the floors above we've got both versions in our house. Also we have another in our lounge that's clean behind but is ducted sideways to the outside and is apparently an air intake to allow the fire to breathe properly.
Edited by Rushjob on Wednesday 3rd February 11:06
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