Emigrating to France with kids
Discussion
Hi all,
We have an opportunity to emigrate to Loire region of France with our three kids 13, 9 & 6.
First question
From the outside looking in the French education system seems much better than the UK, but we can't see how it deals with kids having French as a foreign language - in the UK there are arrangements for kids having English as a foreign language to assist them to maintain their learning orogress and bed into their "new" culture - can anyone give feedback if such assistance is available within the French state system and to what extent?
Second question
We've been offered a "fixer upper" property, which allegedly has permission for a rebuild in place - can anyone advise about how French planning law and building control works so we can validate whether the property vendor just has drawings or if they do have the full planning consent. We'd be in a similar situation to PVApour's project but not on such a grand scale.
Many thanks in advance
Jon
We have an opportunity to emigrate to Loire region of France with our three kids 13, 9 & 6.
First question
From the outside looking in the French education system seems much better than the UK, but we can't see how it deals with kids having French as a foreign language - in the UK there are arrangements for kids having English as a foreign language to assist them to maintain their learning orogress and bed into their "new" culture - can anyone give feedback if such assistance is available within the French state system and to what extent?
Second question
We've been offered a "fixer upper" property, which allegedly has permission for a rebuild in place - can anyone advise about how French planning law and building control works so we can validate whether the property vendor just has drawings or if they do have the full planning consent. We'd be in a similar situation to PVApour's project but not on such a grand scale.
Many thanks in advance
Jon
Hi Jon
In answer to your question, there is no system in place to ease your kids in. They will be thrown in at the deep end, as ours were, and have to sink or swim. We moved ten years ago when ours were five and seven respectively and they went straight into French school where only French was spoken. The younger they are the easier they pick the language up and ours were speaking French confidently after six months. Be under no illusion, you will get no special treatment or favours from the French.
That brings me on to the property you mention. Be very wary indeed of fixer uppers. France is littered with the half finished dream projects of people considering doing exactly what you are. Planning is not the same as in the UK and is dealt with by your local Mairie. The mayor is one of the most powerful and influential people in the commune in which you live, and he will decide whether it's a yes or no to anything you want to do. Local council planning offices as they exist in the UK do not exist in France, the mayors word is law. Unless you speak French fluently or have someone who can on your behalf, dealing with him and French builders will be extremely difficult for you as will getting the work done as you want it done.
There are lots of English cowboys out here masquerading as builders waiting to take advantage of newcomers who can't cope with the French, and who also offer various translating and intermediary services but take no responsibility for cock ups that occur due to their own lack of communication skills.
I am not trying to paint a bleak picture for you and if you can overcome the various problems and make a go of it, France can be a great place to live where the kids can have a wonderful childhood and grow up with the gift of two languages. Just don't walk into it with rose tinted glasses and tred cautiously. Good luck and if I can offer any further advice ( assuming I haven't depressed you too much already) fell free to ask.
In answer to your question, there is no system in place to ease your kids in. They will be thrown in at the deep end, as ours were, and have to sink or swim. We moved ten years ago when ours were five and seven respectively and they went straight into French school where only French was spoken. The younger they are the easier they pick the language up and ours were speaking French confidently after six months. Be under no illusion, you will get no special treatment or favours from the French.
That brings me on to the property you mention. Be very wary indeed of fixer uppers. France is littered with the half finished dream projects of people considering doing exactly what you are. Planning is not the same as in the UK and is dealt with by your local Mairie. The mayor is one of the most powerful and influential people in the commune in which you live, and he will decide whether it's a yes or no to anything you want to do. Local council planning offices as they exist in the UK do not exist in France, the mayors word is law. Unless you speak French fluently or have someone who can on your behalf, dealing with him and French builders will be extremely difficult for you as will getting the work done as you want it done.
There are lots of English cowboys out here masquerading as builders waiting to take advantage of newcomers who can't cope with the French, and who also offer various translating and intermediary services but take no responsibility for cock ups that occur due to their own lack of communication skills.
I am not trying to paint a bleak picture for you and if you can overcome the various problems and make a go of it, France can be a great place to live where the kids can have a wonderful childhood and grow up with the gift of two languages. Just don't walk into it with rose tinted glasses and tred cautiously. Good luck and if I can offer any further advice ( assuming I haven't depressed you too much already) fell free to ask.
What has been allready said about the language is about right. You will do well to start french lessons for all of you straight away,and maybe extra tuition for the kids when here.
If the house is near the church or a building of historical interest be prepaired for stricter planning rules.
Its rare for a mayor to oppose a house renovation in the commune as they welcome young familys and the mayor's secretary is an equally important cog in the works and will be the first point of contact.
Introduce yourself asap when you arrive in France.
There are plenty of very good british tradesmen here in france,so dont be worrying to much about dodgy ones. Good French lads aswell.
Your eldest child may be the one that will struggle in various aspects of french life,due having allready made long term friendships in the UK.
There are plenty of sucsess storys here,so dont be put off. Just think about every decision twice over. And dont part with your dosh if you are not happy about a situation.
If the house is near the church or a building of historical interest be prepaired for stricter planning rules.
Its rare for a mayor to oppose a house renovation in the commune as they welcome young familys and the mayor's secretary is an equally important cog in the works and will be the first point of contact.
Introduce yourself asap when you arrive in France.
There are plenty of very good british tradesmen here in france,so dont be worrying to much about dodgy ones. Good French lads aswell.
Your eldest child may be the one that will struggle in various aspects of french life,due having allready made long term friendships in the UK.
There are plenty of sucsess storys here,so dont be put off. Just think about every decision twice over. And dont part with your dosh if you are not happy about a situation.
France is France and the language is France, they don't tend to go over the top integrating foreigners. Your kid will be fine, eldested might be more of a challenge, but talk to him.
The Marie is the centre of any village life, get there introduce yourself and get know, in the best light, you'll get the mayor on side taht way.
Go to local do's as well gets you known and accepted.
I was once camping on a municipal site near Parentis and the mayor came to officialy pen the site after improvements, all campers were invited and I expect obliged to attend. I was talking to another English couple who thought it would be a formal affair, it wasn't the food and drink flowed freely. Its a sacrific you need to make if integrating in France., mix with them and be welcomed.
beware the refurb building, make sure you know what direction you want that to go
The Marie is the centre of any village life, get there introduce yourself and get know, in the best light, you'll get the mayor on side taht way.
Go to local do's as well gets you known and accepted.
I was once camping on a municipal site near Parentis and the mayor came to officialy pen the site after improvements, all campers were invited and I expect obliged to attend. I was talking to another English couple who thought it would be a formal affair, it wasn't the food and drink flowed freely. Its a sacrific you need to make if integrating in France., mix with them and be welcomed.
beware the refurb building, make sure you know what direction you want that to go
I would also ask your questions on the specialist forums like Living France, Total France, etc.
I agree with the above posters that life in France is enjoyable, well it is for them, and it is for us, but equally I know Brits who are stuck here, often in forgotten corners and without real friends, and who desperately want to return to the UK.
I also agree that it may be hardest for your 13 year old to adapt, and you should assure yourself that his character is suitable for such a major change, but having a child or children at the local school is also a great way to meet other families.
You haven't mentioned if you speak French or how you will support yourself?
Steve
I agree with the above posters that life in France is enjoyable, well it is for them, and it is for us, but equally I know Brits who are stuck here, often in forgotten corners and without real friends, and who desperately want to return to the UK.
I also agree that it may be hardest for your 13 year old to adapt, and you should assure yourself that his character is suitable for such a major change, but having a child or children at the local school is also a great way to meet other families.
You haven't mentioned if you speak French or how you will support yourself?
Steve
No idea about the kids but as for planning go to the local mayors office , any details of planning will be there . I drew my own plans and spec twice , once for extension , garage and pool , second for a new house , I'm just a builder who can read plans , both were passed with ease . Just be aware that all building work in France is very expensive , I did all my own except the electrics which need to be done by a qualified person for the connection , all the rest is your responsibility and I found it very easy . The guy on grand designs who built a house from old tyres is a prime example . Good luck
Planning is NOT done by the Marie,They only give the nod as to whether they are in favour or not to your plans,then they send it to the DDE which in turn does its thing on a Prefectural level.They give you the permission or not,Then they send it back to your Marie.Just hope you don't have Batiments de France involved as they really slow down the process.
The French education system is a dinosaur,along the lines of if, it aint broke don't fix it.It is broken because it's stuck in the dark ages with its methods of teaching.
The cost of building materials is very high in France so it may be worth buying some where already done,There is thousands of houses for sale at the moment.
The French education system is a dinosaur,along the lines of if, it aint broke don't fix it.It is broken because it's stuck in the dark ages with its methods of teaching.
The cost of building materials is very high in France so it may be worth buying some where already done,There is thousands of houses for sale at the moment.
Totally agree with all said above epecially on the subject of education. However, I reiterate from personal experience the influence of the mayor and Mairie. If he doesn't like it, it won't happen regardless of who has granted what permission. There are many ways to obstruct progress and he will know them all. Make sure you stay on his good side at all times as he can also be a powerful ally (again from personal experience)
Once again thanks for all the replies.
I can speak enough French to get by. The missus has what she can remember from school and the kids effectively nothing, but are interested to learn (they have been advised that they will have to learn the language to "survive" socially and at school).
As for employment, I am a project manager with experience in nuclear, power generation and oil/gas and there appear to be quite a few employers within a 2 hour commute.
However I do fail the PH test of neither being a company director or being powerfully built.
I can speak enough French to get by. The missus has what she can remember from school and the kids effectively nothing, but are interested to learn (they have been advised that they will have to learn the language to "survive" socially and at school).
As for employment, I am a project manager with experience in nuclear, power generation and oil/gas and there appear to be quite a few employers within a 2 hour commute.
However I do fail the PH test of neither being a company director or being powerfully built.
My son moved here in July at the age of 6 and as well as his regular school he attends a special class for non French nationals 3 mornings a week as sort of a crash coarse on French language and life. This was arranged by his regular school and is a 12 month coarse although his teacher stipulated she wanted the ability to pull him of the course at the point she felt it would be in his best interest to attend his regular school full time.
A couple of points to add.
I undertook a fairly large construction project near Saumur. Despite being a Civil Engineer and having run my own NHBC building company as well as possessing good project management skills I chose to use a maitre d'oeuvre batiment.
He charged me a 10% fee, but I could earn much more than his fee working in the UK. A regular groan on this area is that French workmen are rubbish and seldom turn up. The guy I used controls perhaps 20% of the construction in my area, so firstly he knows who to ask for quotes i.e. He excludes the knobheads. Secondly, he knows what the best rates are for each task in the locality. Thirdly, if something needs doing to keep my project on time, he priorities the work he has across several contracts, to keep all projects on track, anyone else using one of his guys for work will be disappointed. My project was delivered on time and more importantly on budget. Even though my communication skills are better now, I would still use this route if I ever need to undertake another project - it's horses for courses.
On the subject of employment, I would suggest the first task is to get the job and then find somewhere nearby to live. If you were recruiting in the UK, would you prefer to employ a well qualified Frenchman with slightly dodgy English, or a similarly qualified Englishman with good communication skills? The same probably applies in France, only multiplied several times. This latter point also needs to be borne in mind when your kids grow up.
I know a Brit who moved to France when his kids were very young and so they were totally immersed. After nearly 20 years he left because his kids could not get employment. They spoke French and had similar qualifications to their peers, but when supply exceeds demand, an employer will generally choose the non-foreigner as the cost of employing someone is so high. I think that Russell has already alluded to a similar experience in other threads here.
Living in France is fantastic, particularly if you are retired like me, but could I contemplate doing business in France, absolutely not. Culturally, we are diametrically opposed.
I undertook a fairly large construction project near Saumur. Despite being a Civil Engineer and having run my own NHBC building company as well as possessing good project management skills I chose to use a maitre d'oeuvre batiment.
He charged me a 10% fee, but I could earn much more than his fee working in the UK. A regular groan on this area is that French workmen are rubbish and seldom turn up. The guy I used controls perhaps 20% of the construction in my area, so firstly he knows who to ask for quotes i.e. He excludes the knobheads. Secondly, he knows what the best rates are for each task in the locality. Thirdly, if something needs doing to keep my project on time, he priorities the work he has across several contracts, to keep all projects on track, anyone else using one of his guys for work will be disappointed. My project was delivered on time and more importantly on budget. Even though my communication skills are better now, I would still use this route if I ever need to undertake another project - it's horses for courses.
On the subject of employment, I would suggest the first task is to get the job and then find somewhere nearby to live. If you were recruiting in the UK, would you prefer to employ a well qualified Frenchman with slightly dodgy English, or a similarly qualified Englishman with good communication skills? The same probably applies in France, only multiplied several times. This latter point also needs to be borne in mind when your kids grow up.
I know a Brit who moved to France when his kids were very young and so they were totally immersed. After nearly 20 years he left because his kids could not get employment. They spoke French and had similar qualifications to their peers, but when supply exceeds demand, an employer will generally choose the non-foreigner as the cost of employing someone is so high. I think that Russell has already alluded to a similar experience in other threads here.
Living in France is fantastic, particularly if you are retired like me, but could I contemplate doing business in France, absolutely not. Culturally, we are diametrically opposed.
There's some good advice here. I'd like to add that choosing your maitre d'oeuvre is a very important step, clearly RD had a good one.
Finding unskilled and manual work for non-french nationals will be more difficult in small towns in rural areas where family connections are the key to getting a job, than it will be in big cities , or for those with good qualifications, skills, and experience. I would underline what RD said "get the job and then find somewhere nearby to live".
We moved here fourteen years ago with our daughter, who was then in the last term of primary school. We chose the "private" or Catholic education path on the recommendation of the estate agent and the nearby paysanne, whose kids were at the same school. My OH was/is a fluent French speaker and I, like you "could get by". We are not Catholics and the extra costs involved in the French private system are small, but parental involvement, keen teachers who don't strike, and automatic entry to what was then the best accademic lycée in Brittany were all a bonus.
Most of the teaching is by rote, but I believe that this can be to the advantage of a keen foreign pupil - they are told exactly what they have to learn and repeat to pass tests. Later when they have to make their own deductions, the paths to follow are well defined for them.
It worked well for our daughter who obtained a bac ES, and then a 2.1 at university in the UK. That doesn't mean that we didn't have periods of intense soul searching when she was going through difficult times though, wondering if we had sacrificed her future to our whims.
A simplistic note about health care, not previously mentioned. If your NI payments are up to date you can obtain an S1 form from the UK that will entitle you to the same healthcare as a French national (very generally - 70.% of non urgent medical charges and 100% of urgent ones are re-imbursed by the state. Most of us have a complimentary insurance that covers most of the rest. For your family this will probably cost 100-150 euros pm). The S1 lasts up to 2.5 years (depending at what point in the year it is issued) and ceases when you start paying French social security contributions.
"However I do fail the PH test of neither being a company director or being powerfully built." what's that all about?
I would suggest a period of renting for twelve months or so, before you burn all your UK bridges. Bonne chance!
Steve
Finding unskilled and manual work for non-french nationals will be more difficult in small towns in rural areas where family connections are the key to getting a job, than it will be in big cities , or for those with good qualifications, skills, and experience. I would underline what RD said "get the job and then find somewhere nearby to live".
We moved here fourteen years ago with our daughter, who was then in the last term of primary school. We chose the "private" or Catholic education path on the recommendation of the estate agent and the nearby paysanne, whose kids were at the same school. My OH was/is a fluent French speaker and I, like you "could get by". We are not Catholics and the extra costs involved in the French private system are small, but parental involvement, keen teachers who don't strike, and automatic entry to what was then the best accademic lycée in Brittany were all a bonus.
Most of the teaching is by rote, but I believe that this can be to the advantage of a keen foreign pupil - they are told exactly what they have to learn and repeat to pass tests. Later when they have to make their own deductions, the paths to follow are well defined for them.
It worked well for our daughter who obtained a bac ES, and then a 2.1 at university in the UK. That doesn't mean that we didn't have periods of intense soul searching when she was going through difficult times though, wondering if we had sacrificed her future to our whims.
A simplistic note about health care, not previously mentioned. If your NI payments are up to date you can obtain an S1 form from the UK that will entitle you to the same healthcare as a French national (very generally - 70.% of non urgent medical charges and 100% of urgent ones are re-imbursed by the state. Most of us have a complimentary insurance that covers most of the rest. For your family this will probably cost 100-150 euros pm). The S1 lasts up to 2.5 years (depending at what point in the year it is issued) and ceases when you start paying French social security contributions.
"However I do fail the PH test of neither being a company director or being powerfully built." what's that all about?
I would suggest a period of renting for twelve months or so, before you burn all your UK bridges. Bonne chance!
Steve
Just another thought.Try and pick somewhere to live with some kind of social life.We lived in Ariege for 3 years and to start with the peace,quiet and semi-solitude of our campsite suited our needs but as the kids grew up to become teenagers it was far from ideal so we moved to the Dordogne/L et G border.We now have a very full social life and have made some good friends but remember this,you can integrate but you will never be regarded as a Frenchman.
smifffymoto said:
Just another thought.Try and pick somewhere to live with some kind of social life.We lived in Ariege for 3 years and to start with the peace,quiet and semi-solitude of our campsite suited our needs but as the kids grew up to become teenagers it was far from ideal so we moved to the Dordogne/L et G border.We now have a very full social life and have made some good friends but remember this,you can integrate but you will never be regarded as a Frenchman.
This exactly , we lived there for 18 months just outside sarlat and even that got boring in the winter , the bustling market town in the summer soon turns quiet when it rains . Don't get blinded by what you can buy for your money , as mentioned before , France is full of fixer uppers for a reason , and never ever stand back and say " if this was in England it would be worth " There is a wealth of information on all things French here:
http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/build...
I've linked you to the planning section.
http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/build...
I've linked you to the planning section.
It's fixable... said:
Hi all,
in the UK there are arrangements for kids having English as a foreign language to assist them to maintain their learning orogress and bed into their "new" culture - can anyone give feedback if such assistance is available within the French state system and to what extent?
This will also be organised in France, but on an ad-hoc basis within the individual school. An advance meeting with the headmaster (perhaps assisted by the English teacher at the school) would be a good start.in the UK there are arrangements for kids having English as a foreign language to assist them to maintain their learning orogress and bed into their "new" culture - can anyone give feedback if such assistance is available within the French state system and to what extent?
The French school system is old-fashioned, and, dare I say, archaic, compared to ours, but there is much to like about it, not least that it is all FREE, all the way up to PhD level if you are so inclined.
Other than that....
Learn French
Learn French
Learn French
.... and then after that, learn some more French.
Your life will be very uncomfortable if not. Some people will tell you that they get by, but it's best not to sugar coat it: no allowances are made for non French speakers, least of all by public services.
There is a difference between "getting by" ordering drinks in a bar, and living your life in a different language.
You don't have to be perfect, but the more effort you make, the more you will be welcomed locally.
Edited by PottyMouth on Friday 15th November 10:54
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