Legends - Put some context on how good they were/are?

[Pommygranite]

We hear about how good some people are or were at what they did but sometimes you do wonder 'why were they so good?'

Recently I've been thinking that about Bruce Lee and Lance Armstrong.

I mean Bruce was good at Martial arts but really how good?

Also Lance Armstrong - very determined and obviously very fit but why so much more than other famous cyclists?

I remember that Lothar Matthias was super fit and then someone told me he had a resting heart rate of 27. That kind of put his fitness into context.

Can anyone help with others, and suggest any other 'legends, but why?' people.

[Parsnip]

Lance won the tour more times than any other rider. That and the whole cancer/livestrong thing has put him into the public eye.

Was he THAT good? Yes - beating dopers like Ullrich and Basso when they were on the juice takes some when you are only running on fresh air and croissants. Is he still that good? Will find out in May when he rides the Giro and the Tour in July i guess - that's if he recovers from his broken collarbone.

Edited by Parsnip on Tuesday 24th March 11:28

[MGJohn]

I remember reading somewhere that Michael Scumacher had very average reflexes. Still an exceptional talent though. There's more to this stuff than just physical fitness. Mental fitness also plays a part as well as such things as a favourable environment, or, even being in the right palce at the right time can help enormously.... luck in other words ~ once or twice in my lifetime I was in the right place at the right time.

Wrong place at wrong times best avoided though ...
.

[james_tigerwoods]

What about Senna? I've read his biography and he seems like an oustanding driver - but was he **that** good or just very, very good with a HUGE amount of self belief.

I, personally, believe that he really was that good

[sevros1981]

Was Bruce Lee that good?

Kidding yes....?

[NoelWatson]

Parsnip said:

Lance won the tour more times than any other rider. That and the whole cancer/livestrong thing has put him into the public eye.

Was he THAT good? Yes - beating dopers like Ullrich and Basso when they were on the juice takes some when you are only running on fresh air and croissants. Is he still that good? Will find out in May when he rides the Giro and the Tour in July i guess - that's if he recovers from his broken collarbone.

Edited by Parsnip on Tuesday 24th March 11:28

Is it possible for someone to be clean and still beat those that have been taking EPO etc in an event such as the Tour?

[Mark.H]

Pommygranite said:

We hear about how good some people are or were at what they did but sometimes you do wonder 'why were they so good?'


I mean Bruce was good at Martial arts but really how good?


Can anyone help with others, and suggest any other 'legends, but why?' people.

Id suggest looking at documentaries and stories about his life, much more interesting than any of us could tell you... I have some dvd's with footage of him fighting as a young man on chinese rooftops with knives for sport, and some home footage of him "training" with students. The man was not only a brilliant martial artist but an exceptional human being who pushed his body and mind to a level most of us cannot comprehend as possible, (hence alot of the bullst stories that surrounded his life and death). Like I say, his life makes a compelling story, I highly advise you to go looking into it on the net! Its not every day someone invents an effective Martial Art!

[sevros1981]

True sporting Legends

Ben Hogan
Muhammad Ali
Bruce Lee
Michael Jordan
Pele

[Mark.H]

sevros1981 said:

True sporting Legends

Hulk Hogan
Muhammad Ali
Bruce Lee
Michael Jordan
Pele

EFA!

[sevros1981]

Add him on there if you want, but no-one messes with Ben Hogan!

[ewenm]

NoelWatson said:

Parsnip said:

Lance won the tour more times than any other rider. That and the whole cancer/livestrong thing has put him into the public eye.

Was he THAT good? Yes - beating dopers like Ullrich and Basso when they were on the juice takes some when you are only running on fresh air and croissants. Is he still that good? Will find out in May when he rides the Giro and the Tour in July i guess - that's if he recovers from his broken collarbone.

Edited by Parsnip on Tuesday 24th March 11:28

Is it possible for someone to be clean and still beat those that have been taking EPO etc in an event such as the Tour?

Yes, but you have to be a freak. Remember that top endurance sportsmen are not "normal", they are the extremes, the freaks. Some will take EPO (and the more advanced alternatives) some won't, occasionally you'll find someone so extreme that they will still defeat the dopers.

[Mark.H]

I just had to google Ben Hogan, I'd say he qualifies as Iconic in the sport but he's not exactly recognisable to the masses... which (in my irrelevant opinion) is a requirement for someone to be legendary (to be recognisable by the vast majority of the public).


1st Person to mention S.Loeb as a legend gets his nuts cut off with rusty shears!

[davemac250]

Alberto Tomba - before he discovered pies.

Man could destroy a slalom run like no other - yes Ingemar Stenmark should also be considered, however they competed under different rules and with different levels of competition.

[maser_spyder]

davemac250 said:

Alberto Tomba - before he discovered pies.

Man could destroy a slalom run like no other - yes Ingemar Stenmark should also be considered, however they competed under different rules and with different levels of competition.

+1 Tomba

I did slalom training with a coach that had trained in his younger days with Tomba. He said the guy wasn't just technically superb, he was just so much stronger than all the other guys put together. Immense strength, coupled with a fair amount of talent, the guy was unbeatable on form.

Edited to add - If you're going to include Tomba, you couldn't avoid Klammer....

Edited by maser_spyder on Tuesday 24th March 12:18

[Mike400]

For me its not just the professional / sporting acheivements the person has knocked up, its the personality that makes the legend, how they engage the public and generate enthusiasm.

Lewis Hamilton for example is extremely successful in his sport, but no matter how many WDC titles he notches up he will always fall short of being a James Hunt if that makes sense.

[Twincharged]

thegavster said:

Well, in 2005 when Armstrong won the Tour, it was in a final time of 86h 15' 02", Ivan Basso came second, 4' 40" behind him.

Which makes Armstrong around 0.1% better than Basso.

HTH

Gav

Ah, but that's assuming that each hour less takes the same amount of achievement to do, whereas when your already going very quickly it is probably even more difficult to shave that 0.1% of time off.
The same applies to supercars going over 200mph- every mph is much more difficult (for aerodynamic reasons, I grant you). The law of diminishing returns applies in most walks of life though.

Edited by Twincharged on Tuesday 24th March 15:32

[HundredthIdiot]

Pommygranite said:

Also Lance Armstrong - very determined and obviously very fit but why so much more than other famous cyclists?

1. He focused exclusively on the TdF, just one event in the whole year.
2. According to Lance, his body was reshaped by cancer treatment. Specifically, he lost muscle mass in his upper body, which made him a better climber.
3. Some say he doped but wasn't caught.

Edited by HundredthIdiot on Tuesday 24th March 12:23

[NoelWatson]

ewenm said:

NoelWatson said:

Parsnip said:

Lance won the tour more times than any other rider. That and the whole cancer/livestrong thing has put him into the public eye.

Was he THAT good? Yes - beating dopers like Ullrich and Basso when they were on the juice takes some when you are only running on fresh air and croissants. Is he still that good? Will find out in May when he rides the Giro and the Tour in July i guess - that's if he recovers from his broken collarbone.

Edited by Parsnip on Tuesday 24th March 11:28

Is it possible for someone to be clean and still beat those that have been taking EPO etc in an event such as the Tour?

Yes, but you have to be a freak. Remember that top endurance sportsmen are not "normal", they are the extremes, the freaks. Some will take EPO (and the more advanced alternatives) some won't, occasionally you'll find someone so extreme that they will still defeat the dopers.

But aren't the vast majority of people that compete in the Tour freaks compared with the general population? How much of a difference does EPO make (has there been any before and after testing)?

[Aowhs102]

Tazio Novolari would be up there for me.

Enzo Ferrari's favorite driver...

[staceyb]

Nastia Liukin

2 Time World Champion and Olympic Champion, and she has an additional 7 World medals and 4 Olympic medals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPUXJpPaOaU