Where did the downfall in discipline begin?
Discussion
Was it when canes were removed from the teachers arsenal to explore right and wrong?
I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
CosmicMatt said:
Was it when canes were removed from the teachers arsenal to explore right and wrong?
I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
All I CAN say is that when i lived in West Germany, I was astounded at how well behaved and lovely the kids were. They used to wave when I'd drive past in the Porsche, and coming from England, I always assumed they were waving but had bricks ready in their hands ready to lob at me. But this was never the case.I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
I don't know why West Germany is different to the UK. Could be schooling.
Could be that a large proportion of mothers stay at home to look after their children during the formative years....
Marquis_Rex said:
CosmicMatt said:
Was it when canes were removed from the teachers arsenal to explore right and wrong?
I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
All I CAN say is that when i lived in West Germany, I was astounded at how well behaved and lovely the kids were. They used to wave when I'd drive past in the Porsche, and coming from England, I always assumed they were waving but had bricks ready in their hands ready to lob at me. But this was never the case.I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
I don't know why West Germany is different to the UK. Could be schooling.
Could be that a large proportion of mothers stay at home to look after their children during the formative years....
Lack of respect for the Police - no more clips around the ear
Lack of respect for anyone - don't learn right from wrong at School, fear no one.
Human Rights - I can do what I want, you can't stop me attitude.
Parents - Either not present or unwilling, lack of discipline.
Marquis_Rex said:
CosmicMatt said:
Was it when canes were removed from the teachers arsenal to explore right and wrong?
I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
All I CAN say is that when i lived in West Germany, I was astounded at how well behaved and lovely the kids were. They used to wave when I'd drive past in the Porsche, and coming from England, I always assumed they were waving but had bricks ready in their hands ready to lob at me. But this was never the case.I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
I don't know why West Germany is different to the UK. Could be schooling.
Could be that a large proportion of mothers stay at home to look after their children during the formative years....
Seriously though, increase in women getting jobs = noone looking after kids = schools looking after kids, that coupled with softer teachers = bad. Maybe single parents/divorces are to blame too?
Why did the divorce rate increase so much?
CosmicMatt said:
Marquis_Rex said:
CosmicMatt said:
Was it when canes were removed from the teachers arsenal to explore right and wrong?
I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
All I CAN say is that when i lived in West Germany, I was astounded at how well behaved and lovely the kids were. They used to wave when I'd drive past in the Porsche, and coming from England, I always assumed they were waving but had bricks ready in their hands ready to lob at me. But this was never the case.I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
I don't know why West Germany is different to the UK. Could be schooling.
Could be that a large proportion of mothers stay at home to look after their children during the formative years....
Lack of respect for the Police - no more clips around the ear
Lack of respect for anyone - don't learn right from wrong at School, fear no one.
Human Rights - I can do what I want, you can't stop me attitude.
Parents - Either not present or unwilling, lack of discipline.
The jealousy culture which I think stems from the instant-gratification culture: Where chav riff-raff believe its their right to have or own this or that and not work to earn it-they want it NOW. This leads to people smashing others property through lack of respect
The US has its pretty bad ghettoes and it isnt like Germany, but this jealous aspect isnt here and this dangerous riff-raff on the streets isnt as widespread
The stupidity culture: Where it's cool to be stupid/dim and sad to be a geek or very into something technical.It;s cool to be a football hooligan.
This doesnt help as it leads to lack of thought and empathy
jamoor said:
Marquis_Rex said:
CosmicMatt said:
Was it when canes were removed from the teachers arsenal to explore right and wrong?
I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
All I CAN say is that when i lived in West Germany, I was astounded at how well behaved and lovely the kids were. They used to wave when I'd drive past in the Porsche, and coming from England, I always assumed they were waving but had bricks ready in their hands ready to lob at me. But this was never the case.I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
I don't know why West Germany is different to the UK. Could be schooling.
Could be that a large proportion of mothers stay at home to look after their children during the formative years....
Seriously though, increase in women getting jobs = noone looking after kids = schools looking after kids, that coupled with softer teachers = bad. Maybe single parents/divorces are to blame too?
Why did the divorce rate increase so much?
I also think the mother-child bond in the younger years or lack there of has a part to play- not just the softer teacher aspect
I would say about 20 years ago when the first batch of teenage mothers learned the easy way to get a council house and not have to work was get yourself knocked up and made homeless by the parents,que free house and income for the next 18 years and a future where having a child is treated as an income rather than wanting to be a parent
Marquis_Rex said:
CosmicMatt said:
Marquis_Rex said:
CosmicMatt said:
Was it when canes were removed from the teachers arsenal to explore right and wrong?
I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
All I CAN say is that when i lived in West Germany, I was astounded at how well behaved and lovely the kids were. They used to wave when I'd drive past in the Porsche, and coming from England, I always assumed they were waving but had bricks ready in their hands ready to lob at me. But this was never the case.I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
I don't know why West Germany is different to the UK. Could be schooling.
Could be that a large proportion of mothers stay at home to look after their children during the formative years....
Lack of respect for the Police - no more clips around the ear
Lack of respect for anyone - don't learn right from wrong at School, fear no one.
Human Rights - I can do what I want, you can't stop me attitude.
Parents - Either not present or unwilling, lack of discipline.
This doesnt help as it leads to lack of thought and empathy
They seem to think the book stops with drinking, ilicit sex and violence. Computer games/television to blame as well perhaps?
CosmicMatt said:
Marquis_Rex said:
CosmicMatt said:
Marquis_Rex said:
CosmicMatt said:
Was it when canes were removed from the teachers arsenal to explore right and wrong?
I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
All I CAN say is that when i lived in West Germany, I was astounded at how well behaved and lovely the kids were. They used to wave when I'd drive past in the Porsche, and coming from England, I always assumed they were waving but had bricks ready in their hands ready to lob at me. But this was never the case.I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
I don't know why West Germany is different to the UK. Could be schooling.
Could be that a large proportion of mothers stay at home to look after their children during the formative years....
Lack of respect for the Police - no more clips around the ear
Lack of respect for anyone - don't learn right from wrong at School, fear no one.
Human Rights - I can do what I want, you can't stop me attitude.
Parents - Either not present or unwilling, lack of discipline.
This doesnt help as it leads to lack of thought and empathy
They seem to think the book stops with drinking, ilicit sex and violence. Computer games/television to blame as well perhaps?
My friend , an engineer from Jag was on the dating scene a while ago, when he told people what he did, involved in the development of the S type R even at over the age of 30, womens reactions were rarely favourable. In Germany or over here if you tell them you do a 'geeky' profession like that, its always regarded with interest.
I guess it's just part of the UK Media/culture (or lack of!)
I started secondary school in 1997 and left in 2004. I could easily tell the difference in disipline in that time. Its funny beacsue when i was a year 7 i looked forward to being older and bigger so nobody would mess with me, infact in 6th for it was the year 9's running riot in big gangs - we couldnt do anything because we didnt want to get a record - something these little s
ts dont care about. It really did degenerate that badly.
I know people throughout history people always look back and think the grass was greener but i really do think it was. As said above the reason for it is the fact that kids dont fear punishment because there is no punishment, not from parents, teachers or the law. So they just misbehave all the time as as they get older commit worse crimes.
ts dont care about. It really did degenerate that badly. I know people throughout history people always look back and think the grass was greener but i really do think it was. As said above the reason for it is the fact that kids dont fear punishment because there is no punishment, not from parents, teachers or the law. So they just misbehave all the time as as they get older commit worse crimes.
Marquis_Rex said:
CosmicMatt said:
Was it when canes were removed from the teachers arsenal to explore right and wrong?
I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
All I CAN say is that when i lived in West Germany, I was astounded at how well behaved and lovely the kids were. They used to wave when I'd drive past in the Porsche, and coming from England, I always assumed they were waving but had bricks ready in their hands ready to lob at me. But this was never the case.I know growing up as a pupil in an inner city School the vast majority of pupils had little to no respect for the teachers or any others. Watching the youth of today genuinely worries me, whilst it might be a small minority causing issues for the majority what is the cure?
These youths have such a lax attitude and little respect for authority - they don't know how to deal with discipline.
But where did it begin? Was it with the removal of the cane? Where will it end? It worries me with what you read and hear in the media, and don't think this is scaremongering, I've witnessed it first-hand and can confirm it isn't.
So is there a way back or have we gone a step too far? if there is a way back what action needs to be taken?
Any of our older and greying (nothing wrong with grey...21 and I'm starting to go grey...) members who can recall their experiences and give some amusing anecdotes to the PH clan?
I don't know why West Germany is different to the UK. Could be schooling.
Could be that a large proportion of mothers stay at home to look after their children during the formative years....
As to the cane being removed, I do think it has been a disaster for lots of kids education, where they get expelled for a catalogue of minor misdemeanors, where once they would get the cane and it would then be forgotten about and not brought up again and again. In this era of choice I'd allow kids (with the parents permission) to choose between the cane and the non violent option. I know I preferred the cane myself, although that only happened a couple of times in my 1st and 2nd year - my 3rd to 5th years were of the non caning era.
There are no consequences to their actions for those kids (in truth a very small minority but seems a lot more) today who want to defy authority and unfortunately those consequences only start to kick in after 3 to 4 goes inside prison - 10 to 15 years too late. (From the experience I have of the people living in the inner city area I work in).
I think the rot started in the late 80's, I finished secondary school in 1989 and we still had the cane then, but many other schools had stopped using it and then it was banned shortly after at my school.
Many other factors are involved besides discipline though. I think the fact that many families now have both parents working and the breakdown of family structures has also contributed to the mess. As well as the rampant consumerism and celebrity culture that has affected many.
A couple of years ago we were on a train in Switzerland, a bunch of teenage girls got on and in a bizarre 'Sound of Music' moment started to sing a song to our 3 year old. Most in the UK would say that is pretty naff but i thought it was lovely and really how kids should be behaving. That is the same virtually all over the continent though, kids and teens seem to behave themselves.
Many other factors are involved besides discipline though. I think the fact that many families now have both parents working and the breakdown of family structures has also contributed to the mess. As well as the rampant consumerism and celebrity culture that has affected many.
A couple of years ago we were on a train in Switzerland, a bunch of teenage girls got on and in a bizarre 'Sound of Music' moment started to sing a song to our 3 year old. Most in the UK would say that is pretty naff but i thought it was lovely and really how kids should be behaving. That is the same virtually all over the continent though, kids and teens seem to behave themselves.
I think that of the type of people being discussed quite the opposite is true. 
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