Converting the Jehovas
Discussion
I'm civil to these people, and have the time to talk to them. So when they came round earlier, I entertained myself. What I remember of the conversation is paraphrased for you here:
Him: Are you worried about the state of the world?
Me: Specicically what?
Him: Well, the increases in crime and the wars that are all over the world.
Me: I actually reckon crime is probably fairly level but there are more advanced ways of collecting the statistics for crime than in years gone by, and of course political meddling with what consitutes a crime, so I am not convinced there is any increase. The classification of a crime changes from year to year. Statistics will show us what politicians want us to know - enough to justify their tax increases.
Him: What about when you hear your parents and grandparents say there is more crime these days?
Me: Again, they did not have the benefit of the data collection systems and reporting as we do today, so their "belief" is difficult to substantiate. They certainly heard about fewer instances of crime, but then it is rare that ANY of us ever hear about a crime first hand. We all hear about them through the TV, internet and newspapers. The classification of crimes is different today, and there is a massive increase in reporting. It's no wonder we hear about more crimes.
Him: But what about the wars, people fighting the world over.
Me: Oh come on..!! There is fighting in the Middle East and Georgia. There are occupations in Tibet and many corrupt regimes in Africa, and questionable regimes in South America, but as a percentage of the population, I am willing to bet there are fewer people fighting today than ever before. I won't accept this unless I see some independent data. And if there *is* more crime than before, it's probably due to the population of the earth having leapt upwards massively in the past 200 years.
Him: Oh, you're quite knowledgeable about these things.
Me: I'm not, but I read and I question what I read.
Him: Aren't you worried about Global Warming, and the melting of the ice caps?
Me [really enjoying myself]: No. Global Warming is a natural occurance. There is nothing we can do about it.
Him [losing his way with the "religion" thing]: Really? You don't think by reducing our carbon emissions we can reduce GW?
Me: No. Carbon dioxide is a very small percentage of the greenhouse gases. Water vapour is a major greenhouse gas. How can we stop the sun from shining on the seas?
Him: But what about the scientific community who all work for the benefit of reducing carbon emissions.
Me: There are few truly independent scientists. All scientists need to get their income from somewhere. Many will be paid for by govts and other politically-intersted parties.
Him [with a good response]: But what about the petro-chemical companies, won't they have scientists on their side.
Me: Yes, very likely but govts have a great control and influence over the media, and therefore will AND HAVE derided any report which does not conform to their requirements. Global Warming naysayers are being prevented from voicing their arguments because of these bullying tactics. And the general public will believe what it is told, if it is told enough times. Our media behaves like sheep and accepts what the govt and its advisers say instead of putting some effort in and questioning their statements. It's bloody laziness now I come to think about it.
Him: But what about your house? Who built that?
Me [slightly puzzled as to where he was going with this one]: Erm, builders.
Him: And who built the "great house"?
Me: Eh?
Him: The world. How was that built?
Me: Gravity. All particles have a gravitational pull. Over the course of billions of years, particles from the big bang collected together to form stars, planets and other spacial bodies.
Him: But how did the Earth end up exactly the right distance from the Sun? The right distance to nuture life here?
Me: Accidentally. If it wasn't our planet, then it would have been another. In the billions of billions of galaxies out there, there are probably uncountable other worlds just like ours with people just like us populating them. Our world, it's position in the solar system and our existence is a fabulous accident.
Him: Don't you think we are alone then? No-one has ever proved the existance of other life.
Me: This is true, however statistically it is near-impossible to consider us alone in the universe. But sadly is is also near-impossible to communicate with any other life owing to the distances involved.
Him: So what about man. How did we arrive at exactly this form? Surely there was a guiding hand.
Me: No. That'll be evolution. If the path of evolution that brought us here was in any way different, WE would have been different. We are exactly the shape we are because of a very very long line of accidents.
Him: But how can accidents arrive at us in this perfect form?
Me [suppressing a laugh]: I'm 5'6" and fat. Not perfect. In fact, "perfection" is all relative anyway. What exactly are we "perfect" for? I'm good for sitting on a sofa watching TV, talking to people on my computer and eating pizza. If I'm the result of some intelligent design, then I worry about the actual IQ of that designer.
Him: Look at your lawn, a blade of grass... how did that become so?
Me: Same course of evolution as I did.
Him: Man has always been this way. How can you prove otherwise.
Me: Nope. He hasn't. We have fossil records to demonstrate evolution.
Him: But man isn't changing now. Evolution isn't working now.
Me: We might be changing but you fail to understand the lengths of time involved with this. We can prove evolution in some form by the splicing of plants into new types. We cannot prove the evolution of man in such a way as we are politically banned from meddling in that potentially useful area of science. However, the evolution that has happened to date has done so over the course of millions of years. It's no wonder we have no records of this.
Him: Back to the big bang then. Who created that?
Me: You've got me there. But I ask you... why does that HAVE to be created by a being? Cause and effect operates everywhere. Just because we haven't yet found the cause doesn't mean a guiding hand was present. In fact, if you hang around long enough, we might be able to determine the cause as they're firing up that LHC today. What will you do if the scientific community can prove that there has been no guiding hand? Surely you can only have faith in something up until a proof is presented to you?
Him: Well, it's been very interesting talking to you. Thanks very much.
Me: Cheerio.
I could only really recall these items in a 15 minute conversation but at some point he opened his bible and read something to me. I didn't quite understand what point he was trying to make but I questioned who the author was and what his credentials were. He said it was one of the disciples (I don't recall) and that it was because of a direct witness to something. I then explained that I understood that none of the gospels were written at the time of Jesus, many having being written decades later, and that some were ghost-written. He didn't like that.
He questioned me about the existance of God, to which I replied it was my understanding that Man created God. He didn't like that either, although he laughed at the suggestion.
Moral: Don't mess with someone who has PH as a source of info.
Him: Are you worried about the state of the world?
Me: Specicically what?
Him: Well, the increases in crime and the wars that are all over the world.
Me: I actually reckon crime is probably fairly level but there are more advanced ways of collecting the statistics for crime than in years gone by, and of course political meddling with what consitutes a crime, so I am not convinced there is any increase. The classification of a crime changes from year to year. Statistics will show us what politicians want us to know - enough to justify their tax increases.
Him: What about when you hear your parents and grandparents say there is more crime these days?
Me: Again, they did not have the benefit of the data collection systems and reporting as we do today, so their "belief" is difficult to substantiate. They certainly heard about fewer instances of crime, but then it is rare that ANY of us ever hear about a crime first hand. We all hear about them through the TV, internet and newspapers. The classification of crimes is different today, and there is a massive increase in reporting. It's no wonder we hear about more crimes.
Him: But what about the wars, people fighting the world over.
Me: Oh come on..!! There is fighting in the Middle East and Georgia. There are occupations in Tibet and many corrupt regimes in Africa, and questionable regimes in South America, but as a percentage of the population, I am willing to bet there are fewer people fighting today than ever before. I won't accept this unless I see some independent data. And if there *is* more crime than before, it's probably due to the population of the earth having leapt upwards massively in the past 200 years.
Him: Oh, you're quite knowledgeable about these things.
Me: I'm not, but I read and I question what I read.
Him: Aren't you worried about Global Warming, and the melting of the ice caps?
Me [really enjoying myself]: No. Global Warming is a natural occurance. There is nothing we can do about it.
Him [losing his way with the "religion" thing]: Really? You don't think by reducing our carbon emissions we can reduce GW?
Me: No. Carbon dioxide is a very small percentage of the greenhouse gases. Water vapour is a major greenhouse gas. How can we stop the sun from shining on the seas?
Him: But what about the scientific community who all work for the benefit of reducing carbon emissions.
Me: There are few truly independent scientists. All scientists need to get their income from somewhere. Many will be paid for by govts and other politically-intersted parties.
Him [with a good response]: But what about the petro-chemical companies, won't they have scientists on their side.
Me: Yes, very likely but govts have a great control and influence over the media, and therefore will AND HAVE derided any report which does not conform to their requirements. Global Warming naysayers are being prevented from voicing their arguments because of these bullying tactics. And the general public will believe what it is told, if it is told enough times. Our media behaves like sheep and accepts what the govt and its advisers say instead of putting some effort in and questioning their statements. It's bloody laziness now I come to think about it.
Him: But what about your house? Who built that?
Me [slightly puzzled as to where he was going with this one]: Erm, builders.
Him: And who built the "great house"?
Me: Eh?
Him: The world. How was that built?
Me: Gravity. All particles have a gravitational pull. Over the course of billions of years, particles from the big bang collected together to form stars, planets and other spacial bodies.
Him: But how did the Earth end up exactly the right distance from the Sun? The right distance to nuture life here?
Me: Accidentally. If it wasn't our planet, then it would have been another. In the billions of billions of galaxies out there, there are probably uncountable other worlds just like ours with people just like us populating them. Our world, it's position in the solar system and our existence is a fabulous accident.
Him: Don't you think we are alone then? No-one has ever proved the existance of other life.
Me: This is true, however statistically it is near-impossible to consider us alone in the universe. But sadly is is also near-impossible to communicate with any other life owing to the distances involved.
Him: So what about man. How did we arrive at exactly this form? Surely there was a guiding hand.
Me: No. That'll be evolution. If the path of evolution that brought us here was in any way different, WE would have been different. We are exactly the shape we are because of a very very long line of accidents.
Him: But how can accidents arrive at us in this perfect form?
Me [suppressing a laugh]: I'm 5'6" and fat. Not perfect. In fact, "perfection" is all relative anyway. What exactly are we "perfect" for? I'm good for sitting on a sofa watching TV, talking to people on my computer and eating pizza. If I'm the result of some intelligent design, then I worry about the actual IQ of that designer.
Him: Look at your lawn, a blade of grass... how did that become so?
Me: Same course of evolution as I did.
Him: Man has always been this way. How can you prove otherwise.
Me: Nope. He hasn't. We have fossil records to demonstrate evolution.
Him: But man isn't changing now. Evolution isn't working now.
Me: We might be changing but you fail to understand the lengths of time involved with this. We can prove evolution in some form by the splicing of plants into new types. We cannot prove the evolution of man in such a way as we are politically banned from meddling in that potentially useful area of science. However, the evolution that has happened to date has done so over the course of millions of years. It's no wonder we have no records of this.
Him: Back to the big bang then. Who created that?
Me: You've got me there. But I ask you... why does that HAVE to be created by a being? Cause and effect operates everywhere. Just because we haven't yet found the cause doesn't mean a guiding hand was present. In fact, if you hang around long enough, we might be able to determine the cause as they're firing up that LHC today. What will you do if the scientific community can prove that there has been no guiding hand? Surely you can only have faith in something up until a proof is presented to you?
Him: Well, it's been very interesting talking to you. Thanks very much.
Me: Cheerio.
I could only really recall these items in a 15 minute conversation but at some point he opened his bible and read something to me. I didn't quite understand what point he was trying to make but I questioned who the author was and what his credentials were. He said it was one of the disciples (I don't recall) and that it was because of a direct witness to something. I then explained that I understood that none of the gospels were written at the time of Jesus, many having being written decades later, and that some were ghost-written. He didn't like that.
He questioned me about the existance of God, to which I replied it was my understanding that Man created God. He didn't like that either, although he laughed at the suggestion.
Moral: Don't mess with someone who has PH as a source of info.
I've never really had any Jehovah's types visit my house, but I do currently live in the middle of nowhere and I suppose it would be a long walk for them.
Interesting post Mars, I'm usually really crap in these situations and only think of a decent and witty retort several hours after the event has happened.
Good on you.
Interesting post Mars, I'm usually really crap in these situations and only think of a decent and witty retort several hours after the event has happened.
Good on you.
Mars said:
Yugguy said:
Wow.
You have an amazing memory. I cannot recall conversations at such a specific level.
Have you thought of a career in interrogation?
You do understand the principle of paraphrasing don't you?You have an amazing memory. I cannot recall conversations at such a specific level.
Have you thought of a career in interrogation?
bob1179 said:
I've never really had any Jehovah's types visit my house, but I do currently live in the middle of nowhere and I suppose it would be a long walk for them.
Interesting post Mars, I'm usually really crap in these situations and only think of a decent and witty retort several hours after the event has happened.
Good on you.
which is precisely what Mars has done here. Interesting post Mars, I'm usually really crap in these situations and only think of a decent and witty retort several hours after the event has happened.
Good on you.
Zod said:
bob1179 said:
I've never really had any Jehovah's types visit my house, but I do currently live in the middle of nowhere and I suppose it would be a long walk for them.
Interesting post Mars, I'm usually really crap in these situations and only think of a decent and witty retort several hours after the event has happened.
Good on you.
which is precisely what Mars has done here. Interesting post Mars, I'm usually really crap in these situations and only think of a decent and witty retort several hours after the event has happened.
Good on you.
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