Power of Attorney
Discussion
Bit of a revelation last night for myself and brother and sister.
Our other sister, who has a history of depression, and who won't really talk to the rest of us, has informed us that she has obtained power of attorney over/with our 79 year old mum (still drives, reasonably healthy), has closed all mums bank accounts and is now joint account holder and has even changed the locks on mums house and won't let mum replace our keys with new ones!
How can she do that without approval from the rest of us and what grounds can she do it on?
Mums a bit forgetful, but nothing other than normal for a 79 year old, and in fact is pretty switched on generally, likes driving, does her own shopping, sacked her cleaner 'cos she could do better herself etc.
We are all a bit worried as my sister has a history of, well, not really relevant here, quite apart from the insult to all of us that we cannot have a key to the house - not that we ever used them really anyway, its the underlying principle.
Our other sister, who has a history of depression, and who won't really talk to the rest of us, has informed us that she has obtained power of attorney over/with our 79 year old mum (still drives, reasonably healthy), has closed all mums bank accounts and is now joint account holder and has even changed the locks on mums house and won't let mum replace our keys with new ones!
How can she do that without approval from the rest of us and what grounds can she do it on?
Mums a bit forgetful, but nothing other than normal for a 79 year old, and in fact is pretty switched on generally, likes driving, does her own shopping, sacked her cleaner 'cos she could do better herself etc.
We are all a bit worried as my sister has a history of, well, not really relevant here, quite apart from the insult to all of us that we cannot have a key to the house - not that we ever used them really anyway, its the underlying principle.
andygo said:
How can she do that without approval from the rest of us and what grounds can she do it on?
Depends on the mental capacity of the person giving the power of attorney and when it was made! The law changed in October last year on this. My suggestion is to speak to a Solicitor or Contact the Court of Protection - www.publicguardian.gov.ukHTH
The decision is that of your Mother, suggest that you have a chat with her and ascertain if this is actually what she wanted. However, there are a lot of forms/signatures that the Solicitors need to draw up for this (my Parents have just given this to me & my brother).
There are rules as to when it can be implemented too.... I'm sure one of our 'lawyer' types will be along shortly to help.
There are rules as to when it can be implemented too.... I'm sure one of our 'lawyer' types will be along shortly to help.
We have power of attorney over MrsCs mum.
Her money and her house are still hers, we just have the authority to view her accounts and make withdrawls for "her benefit".
It is unlikely that the terms actually exclude her from giving you a door key unless there is something else involved like her being much worse than you think or that she has been made a ward of court.
Looking after someone elses affairs is not easy and always takes a long time to do. Your sister has the beginings of a major issue her hands.
Last week we went to see MrsCs mum because she complained about having no money and needed to be taken to the dentist. Easy you may think, a simple trip into town to the dentist and a chat in her local bank then off to the beach with the kids right? You must be joking.
Every little thing just spirals out of control. She forgets her pin number. You find it. She goes to the cash machine and uses her buspass. You have to get it back out of the machine. She complains that she can't read the pin number because her glasses are at home. You go back to the car and get the letter with it on. She wanders off. You find her again and use the card. You are late for the dentist. It is in a one way street full of double yellow lines. You drop her off with MrsC and drive round the block endlessly until a space is found. She makes a scene in the dentist. She forgets her pin when it is time to pay. You go back to the car to get it. You still don't know why she thinks she has no money. She won't tell you. Later on you find a pile of unpaid bills in her house. You have to deal with them for her. She thinks two of them are nothing to do with her and won't let you pay for them. Another one is for internet broadband and she doesn't even have a computer.
Day two is spent at the bank and phoning up the sources of the suspicious bills. Turn out ligit. You wasted half a day. Then she loses her bus pass.
Day three you discover that her toaster doesn't work and neither does the fridge. Your milk is off, the toast doesn't toast and the jam is mouldy. You have to buy a new fridge. And a new toaster.
Day four you put the packaging of the new toaster in the bin and find it full of cider cans. Are they hers? Yup. You talk to her about this and she hasn't a clue how long it is since the bin was emptied. Can she still get round the house on bin day? She can't remember.
Repeat. A lot.
Her money and her house are still hers, we just have the authority to view her accounts and make withdrawls for "her benefit".
It is unlikely that the terms actually exclude her from giving you a door key unless there is something else involved like her being much worse than you think or that she has been made a ward of court.
Looking after someone elses affairs is not easy and always takes a long time to do. Your sister has the beginings of a major issue her hands.
Last week we went to see MrsCs mum because she complained about having no money and needed to be taken to the dentist. Easy you may think, a simple trip into town to the dentist and a chat in her local bank then off to the beach with the kids right? You must be joking.
Every little thing just spirals out of control. She forgets her pin number. You find it. She goes to the cash machine and uses her buspass. You have to get it back out of the machine. She complains that she can't read the pin number because her glasses are at home. You go back to the car and get the letter with it on. She wanders off. You find her again and use the card. You are late for the dentist. It is in a one way street full of double yellow lines. You drop her off with MrsC and drive round the block endlessly until a space is found. She makes a scene in the dentist. She forgets her pin when it is time to pay. You go back to the car to get it. You still don't know why she thinks she has no money. She won't tell you. Later on you find a pile of unpaid bills in her house. You have to deal with them for her. She thinks two of them are nothing to do with her and won't let you pay for them. Another one is for internet broadband and she doesn't even have a computer.
Day two is spent at the bank and phoning up the sources of the suspicious bills. Turn out ligit. You wasted half a day. Then she loses her bus pass.
Day three you discover that her toaster doesn't work and neither does the fridge. Your milk is off, the toast doesn't toast and the jam is mouldy. You have to buy a new fridge. And a new toaster.
Day four you put the packaging of the new toaster in the bin and find it full of cider cans. Are they hers? Yup. You talk to her about this and she hasn't a clue how long it is since the bin was emptied. Can she still get round the house on bin day? She can't remember.
Repeat. A lot.
Hi. If you suspect that someone is abusing the Powers of Attorney, please contact the Compliance and Regulation Unit at the Office of Public Guardian 0845 330 2900.
I dealt with a Customs and Excise Officer who had enduring powers of attorney, who had a real bad drink problem, a bit on the side who he lavashed lots of gifts on and generally liked to spend money (although not his own!).
He went through over £40,000 in 6 months of an elderly relatives savings. With something like this, seek an early resolution before any or all the money disappears. It's a shame that someone vulnerable can get taken to the cleaners by a family member. You never know, your family member may just be the 'angel' looking after her and you may be surprised. But check anyway!
Good luck.
btb
I dealt with a Customs and Excise Officer who had enduring powers of attorney, who had a real bad drink problem, a bit on the side who he lavashed lots of gifts on and generally liked to spend money (although not his own!).
He went through over £40,000 in 6 months of an elderly relatives savings. With something like this, seek an early resolution before any or all the money disappears. It's a shame that someone vulnerable can get taken to the cleaners by a family member. You never know, your family member may just be the 'angel' looking after her and you may be surprised. But check anyway!
Good luck.
btb
I thought Power of Attorney rules changed recently limiting their powers.
I agree completely with the post, it's worrying and annoying that a brother/sister would do this - it happened in my family too, but I was able to unpick it all. Firstly I changed it to 'joint power of attorney' meaning we (both brothers) had equal powers and were it to be exercised BOTH signatures were needed.
A PoA is also very easy to revoke, your mum can do that if she wishes.
It is highly likely that your sister has persuaded your mum to change her will too. Get that checked.
phumy said:
I am in a similar situation to the OP and also have "concerns", how do i get to check that all is ok with my mother's bank accounts?
Do i have any rights of access to know that the accounts are not being abused?
If someone else has power of attorney with a family member, then only these two people will have direct access to the accounts. It's the same as someone wanting to access your account, the bank simply will not allow it, unless you have an order from a Court or perhaps a death certificate and wanting to clear the estate.Do i have any rights of access to know that the accounts are not being abused?
Call the number quoted above. They can start the ball rolling and i believe can they can order the person with P.O.A to attend their offices with documentation to prove compliance.
Note: The person with P.O.A can make withdrawals from accounts to buy gifts as if from the elderly person themselves and take money as an allowance to cover expenses etc.
If you do find money missing over and above reasonable expenses, contact your local Police Station and speak to a CID Officer. They generally have more time for the sometimes prolonged enquiries required into these offences than uniformed Officers such as obtaining statements from the OPG, family members, obtaining authority from a Crown Court Judge to access the Bank account(s), Banks themselves (can take ages!) and then dealing with the offender(s).
Have you spoken to the person involved directly and asked them outright. This may concentrate their minds into behaving themselves?
Good luck.
btb
btb said:
phumy said:
I am in a similar situation to the OP and also have "concerns", how do i get to check that all is ok with my mother's bank accounts?
Do i have any rights of access to know that the accounts are not being abused?
If someone else has power of attorney with a family member, then only these two people will have direct access to the accounts. It's the same as someone wanting to access your account, the bank simply will not allow it, unless you have an order from a Court or perhaps a death certificate and wanting to clear the estate.Do i have any rights of access to know that the accounts are not being abused?
Call the number quoted above. They can start the ball rolling and i believe can they can order the person with P.O.A to attend their offices with documentation to prove compliance.
Note: The person with P.O.A can make withdrawals from accounts to buy gifts as if from the elderly person themselves and take money as an allowance to cover expenses etc.
If you do find money missing over and above reasonable expenses, contact your local Police Station and speak to a CID Officer. They generally have more time for the sometimes prolonged enquiries required into these offences than uniformed Officers such as obtaining statements from the OPG, family members, obtaining authority from a Crown Court Judge to access the Bank account(s), Banks themselves (can take ages!) and then dealing with the offender(s).
Have you spoken to the person involved directly and asked them outright. This may concentrate their minds into behaving themselves?
Good luck.
btb
Had POA for my late Mother. It's a permission to deal with the person's affairs not a licence to plunder, or indeed take over their lives. However it doesn't give permission to disclose private affairs to the family, though if they have their suspicions of your motives and actions excessive secrecy certainly isn't going to help.
Sounds as if the OP's mother has issues which may mean she shouldn't be living on her own.
Sounds as if the OP's mother has issues which may mean she shouldn't be living on her own.
Dogwatch said:
Had POA for my late Mother. It's a permission to deal with the person's affairs not a licence to plunder, or indeed take over their lives. However it doesn't give permission to disclose private affairs to the family, though if they have their suspicions of your motives and actions excessive secrecy certainly isn't going to help.
Sounds as if the OP's mother has issues which may mean she shouldn't be living on her own.
My mum is pretty ok really. She drives round town visiting friends, shopping etc. House is clean, she does all her own washing, ironing etc., always looks smart and so on.Sounds as if the OP's mother has issues which may mean she shouldn't be living on her own.
We have asked to have a meeting with my sister in a public place (as she has a tendency to go crazy if opposed) but she is ignoring us. She can be a very manipulative woman imo and has worked on Mum for years in the opinion of the rest of the family.
andygo said:
We have asked to have a meeting with my sister in a public place (as she has a tendency to go crazy if opposed) but she is ignoring us. She can be a very manipulative woman imo and has worked on Mum for years in the opinion of the rest of the family.
You need to talk to your Mum mate, not your sister.Your Mum can revoke the POA at ANY time, very easily, if she feels that she doesn't want to do that - to not offend your sister, then suggest a JOINT POA, that way it needs both of you to do something - explan to your Mum about all the publicity on the BBC and you are safeguarding her best interests.
Edited by ali_kat on Saturday 6th September 14:06
ali_kat said:
andygo said:
We have asked to have a meeting with my sister in a public place (as she has a tendency to go crazy if opposed) but she is ignoring us. She can be a very manipulative woman imo and has worked on Mum for years in the opinion of the rest of the family.
You need to talk to your Mum mate, not your sister.Your Mum can revoke the POA at ANY time, very easily, if she feels that she doesn't want to do that - to not offend your sister, then suggest a JOINT POA, that way it needs both of you to do something - explan to your Mum about all the publicity on the BBC and you are safeguarding her best interests.
Edited by ali_kat on Saturday 6th September 14:06
A very strange situation, probably made all the more difficult as we are all so close to it I suppose.
Families? Who needs them - well sometimes.
I'm sure it will sort itself out in the end, but at the mo its a tricky one folks.
BTW, thanks for your comments.
andygo said:
Dogwatch said:
Had POA for my late Mother. It's a permission to deal with the person's affairs not a licence to plunder, or indeed take over their lives. However it doesn't give permission to disclose private affairs to the family, though if they have their suspicions of your motives and actions excessive secrecy certainly isn't going to help.
Sounds as if the OP's mother has issues which may mean she shouldn't be living on her own.
My mum is pretty ok really. She drives round town visiting friends, shopping etc. House is clean, she does all her own washing, ironing etc., always looks smart and so on.Sounds as if the OP's mother has issues which may mean she shouldn't be living on her own.
We have asked to have a meeting with my sister in a public place (as she has a tendency to go crazy if opposed) but she is ignoring us. She can be a very manipulative woman imo and has worked on Mum for years in the opinion of the rest of the family.
power of attorney should not allow her a free for all over your mothers finances. If she gets violent and angry with you when confronted it may be she has been aggresive with your mother also.
Please get this checked out. i would be very concerned if it was my mother.
Gassing Station | The Pie & Piston Archive | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff