Any dog experts/trainers on PH
Discussion
as my rotties driving me nuts ifvhad dogs all my life rotties as well
latest member is a rottie bitch now 12 moths old very obbideient traing came on well
shes been socilised fully but at six moths started wanting to have strangers and i mea have em.
it not a dominace situation or a dominant breed getting uper hand with owner
im used roties been keeping dogs all my life
shes fine with pepole she knows and I can calme her with new visitors in a few mins she licking em to death.
but outside on lead given the chance she have the arm off anyone that comes close to me
iv tryed all the ushall stuff changing direction when strangers aproch sitting in bussy arears and caliming her
distraction you name it iv tryed
i know for shaw it not fear biteing
she does have a very high pray drive that dont help
there she is with us looking all well behaved till a strager gets too close
if had her since a pup and soicilosed her well including during there normal fear peroids.
s unushallt for roties she love over animals to death and my m8 kids
she is a very active rottie and was a very hyper pup compared to most roties.
anyone got any other idears to try.
>> Edited by OUTLAW-1 on Sunday 8th January 10:28
>> Edited by OUTLAW-1 on Sunday 8th January 10:51
latest member is a rottie bitch now 12 moths old very obbideient traing came on well
shes been socilised fully but at six moths started wanting to have strangers and i mea have em.
it not a dominace situation or a dominant breed getting uper hand with owner
im used roties been keeping dogs all my life
shes fine with pepole she knows and I can calme her with new visitors in a few mins she licking em to death.
but outside on lead given the chance she have the arm off anyone that comes close to me
iv tryed all the ushall stuff changing direction when strangers aproch sitting in bussy arears and caliming her
distraction you name it iv tryed
i know for shaw it not fear biteing
she does have a very high pray drive that dont help
there she is with us looking all well behaved till a strager gets too close
if had her since a pup and soicilosed her well including during there normal fear peroids.
s unushallt for roties she love over animals to death and my m8 kids
she is a very active rottie and was a very hyper pup compared to most roties.
anyone got any other idears to try.
>> Edited by OUTLAW-1 on Sunday 8th January 10:28
>> Edited by OUTLAW-1 on Sunday 8th January 10:51
Ive trained a few in my time
OUTLAW-1 said:
anyone got any other idears to try.
Hmmm! Good prey drive!
She is viewing the passers by as prey and probably views them as a possible threat to yourself and is protecting you (or thinks that she is protecting you)
You say that you have done obedience training with her – what did you teach as a command to stop what she was doing?? The most common word is NO! spoken in a stern voice.
I’m assuming that you have also taught her the ‘down’ command and that as a rule she abides by it.
Step 1: When you are out walking and there are public about do not tense up waiting for her to misbehave – the dog will sense your apprehension and will react/take advantage. Wait for her to lunge/misbehave – then give the two commands ‘No’ and ‘down’ together at the same time as a firm tug on her lead (cant see clearly in the picture but I assume that you walk her on a choke chain) If she doesn’t obey first time repeat the commands louder and give her lead a harder tug.
Try it for a few days before moving on to step 2
Step 2: some people reading this may get the impression that this is cruel its not you are simply effecting the use of a choke chain to its full useages – I was taught this by a Police Dog instructor and it has proved very effective with nearly all dogs and at the end of the day – if you can nip it in the bud early on with a short sharp shock tactic it’s a whole lot better than a member of the public getting maimed and the dog getting destroyed under the Dangerous Dogs Act
For this you need a heavy choke chain that is 8-10 inches longer than the girth of the dogs neck and a metal keyring – assuming that you know (you probably do – but there are lots of people that don’t) the correct way a choke chain should be on (if the dog is walking on your left hand side) – put the chain on the dog upside down – now you need the key ring – pull the chain tight (you should be able to slide your fingers underneath it up to your knuckles) and feed the keyring over the part of the chain that is connected to the lead – this will stop the choke chain slackening – the reason for this will become apparent.
Walk the dog as normal, when you come across a pedestrian as she ‘goes for them’ in a stern voice give the command ‘No’ swiftly followed by ‘DOWN’ at the same time lift your left foot and stamp down on the join of the choke chain and the lead. The dog will assume the ‘Down’ position at lightening speed ;O) DO NOT RELEASE your foot – hold the dog in the down position for 5 seconds – the dog will look up at you as if to say WTF! When the dog looks at you again say ‘NO!’ then let the dog up, give the walk on command and carry on – you will have to do this a few times before the dog realises that there is no point in having a go at people walking by.
MM, I like your answer. Do you loosen the choke afterwards? Or is the key ring just a means of pulling the dog to the floor? Are pinch collars legal in the UK? I agree with their use in some circumstances.
Outlaw, I think it's guarding behaviour and wonder why a puppy/adolescent assumes the guarding responsibility upon itself. Does it need demoting big time. Shock demoting so it reassesses it's pack position?
Boosted.
Outlaw, I think it's guarding behaviour and wonder why a puppy/adolescent assumes the guarding responsibility upon itself. Does it need demoting big time. Shock demoting so it reassesses it's pack position?
Boosted.
Boosted Ls1 said:
MM, I like your answer. Do you loosen the choke afterwards? Or is the key ring just a means of pulling the dog to the floor? Are pinch collars legal in the UK? I agree with their use in some circumstances.
Outlaw, I think it's guarding behaviour and wonder why a puppy/adolescent assumes the guarding responsibility upon itself. Does it need demoting big time. Shock demoting so it reassesses it's pack position?
Boosted.
The key ring on the choke is to remove the slack from the choke chain and make it doubly effective - on a normal choke chain when you 'pull' to control the dog 50% of the pulling motion is taking up the slack of the chain so the 'choke' isn't as effective as it could be.
The key ring holds the choke in the closest effective position without 'choking' the dog - hence ensuring that you can slide your hand under the chain at the start - once on under normal circumstances it is no different to the dog wearing a normal collar.
Once the misbehavior is dealt with and the dog walks without any indescretions the key ring can be removed and normal collar length resumed.
I'm not entireley sure on the legal situation with 'pinch collars' there was some talk about making them illegal a while back but I didnt hear anymore. I have never used one personnally I think that they are cruel - but that is just my opinion
The dog does need demoting big time and when the 'boss' says no and the dog hits the floor and is in the lowest possible position compared to the 'handler' it will suddenly realise that no means no and the 'handler' IS IN CHARGE.
MM, do you think your theory would work on an older dog, 6 to 8 years old I think? We got a rescued Labrador, ex working gun dog, last year, he is great with people but has to show other dogs who is the boss, once this is established he is fine. It is a nightmare every time he sees another dog as he goes berserk and nearly pulls my arms off. The only dog he respects is my GSD (who is fine with other dogs) but they tend to wind each other up when out and we see other dogs.
falcemob said:
MM, do you think your theory would work on an older dog, 6 to 8 years old I think? We got a rescued Labrador, ex working gun dog, last year, he is great with people but has to show other dogs who is the boss, once this is established he is fine. It is a nightmare every time he sees another dog as he goes berserk and nearly pulls my arms off. The only dog he respects is my GSD (who is fine with other dogs) but they tend to wind each other up when out and we see other dogs.
Is your dog as brave when he's off the lead and you aren't near him? Perhaps his flight option has been removed so all he can do is fight!
Boosted.
falcemob said:
MM, do you think your theory would work on an older dog, 6 to 8 years old I think? We got a rescued Labrador, ex working gun dog, last year, he is great with people but has to show other dogs who is the boss, once this is established he is fine. It is a nightmare every time he sees another dog as he goes berserk and nearly pulls my arms off. The only dog he respects is my GSD (who is fine with other dogs) but they tend to wind each other up when out and we see other dogs.
Yes it would work but as he is quite a bit older and If it is every time you encounter another dog try:
Prior to him going beserk (just as the other dog comes into range) put him in the down position (submissive) and hold him down (foot on the lead so he cant lift his head - you are the boss and should stand tall) hold him down until the other dog has gone past - if he tries to move whilst held down give the command NO! If he lays there being good with no noise - give lots of praise
Try it for a few days with you saying down and a gentle tug on the lead to get him down, then try giving the command just verbally and see if he will go down of his own free will if not keep helping him down for another few days - he is an old dog so will take a bit longer to learn something new.
After a few days of you holding him tightly down with your foot still continue putting him down but lift your foot 6-8 inches to see if takes advantage or has learnt what you expect - if he goes for the dog stamp the lead to the ground - and NO!
Persevere within a couple of weeks you should be able to just say 'down' and not need to put your foot on the lead.
marcos maniac said:
MM, I like your answer. Do you loosen the choke afterwards? Or is the key ring just a means of pulling the dog to the floor? Are pinch collars legal in the UK? I agree with their use in some circumstances.
Outlaw, I think it's guarding behaviour and wonder why a puppy/adolescent assumes the guarding responsibility upon itself. Does it need demoting big time. Shock demoting so it reassesses it's pack position?
Boosted.
The key ring on the choke is to remove the slack from the choke chain and make it doubly effective - on a normal choke chain when you 'pull' to control the dog 50% of the pulling motion is taking up the slack of the chain so the 'choke' isn't as effective as it could be.
The key ring holds the choke in the closest effective position without 'choking' the dog - hence ensuring that you can slide your hand under the chain at the start - once on under normal circumstances it is no different to the dog wearing a normal collar.
Once the misbehavior is dealt with and the dog walks without any indescretions the key ring can be removed and normal collar length resumed.
I'm not entireley sure on the legal situation with 'pinch collars' there was some talk about making them illegal a while back but I didnt hear anymore. I have never used one personnally I think that they are cruel - but that is just my opinion
The dog does need demoting big time and when the 'boss' says no and the dog hits the floor and is in the lowest possible position compared to the 'handler' it will suddenly realise that no means no and the 'handler' IS IN CHARGE.
yes i think you righ she has extreamly high prey drive and is over protective of me. another indication of thing is she will go nuts in the car when parked if some comes near it when im in the car. However if left in it alone she will behave
every thing points to a owner with a dog that thinks it the alpha
but this is not the case she clealy acsepts me as the alpha clearly
one advantage i do have with dogs is a very load barry white style voice and i mean extream voice that lends very well to traing.
and I am carfule with dominace i would have never got a rotie if i want used dominent breeds
ie i know some dont belive in alpa throy now but i all ways have ie with every thing she come last ie doors food alpah ie me all gos first
yes it is still showing guarding tendances as if it is the case that the main thing that struck me as you knowrotie tend to lean to wards owner more than other breeds im the one she chose she does take the piss with the mrs a bit but not with me. i dont norly have to mrs just ok i get your dad and that she behaves
thats the odd thing to me I can normaly have her nose on the ground with a look when im talking about the aggretion with strangers it is full on and very focused not snaping and warning and vevy singel minded ie she totaly deaf at the time to anything ie causeing her obidience to go out the window and does no hear comands
one other thing i tryed and it did work for a while was one the handheld ultrosonic screams to get her atention and then put her downand distract her and it work well for a while but she got used to the sound and ignorned it after awhile
yes i have all ways used choke chains
stage one been done try no chance
i have tryed puting her down ever time to the ground ie steping on chain i havent tryed the key ring trick i can see how that would work
re pinch chains i belive they are ileagal here but am not shaw if there not i think they should should be and would never you such a thing on an animal.
yes she does know the down comand and no and belive she know no means know and is very obidient bar this one thing
only one iv had trobl with is stay she the hardes do iv ever had to teach the stay comand too she know it but refuses to stay and runs after me
i thort about traing her sent tracking ie as a working breed she very willing to work with me and it may use up some of the exsess prey drive.
i must stress that she is very exsitable and hyper for a rottie very unusahlly so
she due to be spayed after her second seson she would have been done after first seson but had cystitis with her first seson so i left too next one
in some ways i may have not choked her as hard as i shold do not wanting to be seen as cruel when im out as her neck being the size it is it takes a dam good yanking before she notices its getting yanked.
iv been useing a gental leader just when im in very busy places as its easy to control her nose with and safe as i dont want here to get hold of someone
re tenceing up and antisipating it yes i know that
one thing to note is she was never a tipical rotie puppy and was very hyper for a rotie plus the dog that fathered her had been a full working guard with probly dont help
>> Edited by OUTLAW-1 on Monday 9th January 06:07
OUTLAW-1 said:
thats the odd thing to me I can normaly have her nose on the ground with a look when im talking about the aggretion with strangers it is full on and very focused not snaping and warning and vevy singel minded ie she totaly deaf at the time to anything ie causeing her obidience to go out the window and does no hear comands
one other thing i tryed and it did work for a while was one the handheld ultrosonic screams to get her atention and then put her downand distract her and it work well for a while but she got used to the sound and ignorned it after awhile
Both the above comments answer themselves - when she is in attack mode she is focusing all of her attentions on the target - sound is one of the senses that she doesn't require for what she is focused on/intent on doing and it gets pushed to the back of her mind as not being of importance. This has been further instigated by the use of the ultrasonic scream - she didn't like it at first and it interrupted what she was tryig to achieve and was a distraction - a distraction which she is now shutting out.
OUTLAW-1 said:
yes i have all ways used choke chains
stage one been done try no chance
i have tryed puting her down ever time to the ground ie steping on chain i havent tryed the key ring trick i can see how that would work
Pop the choke chain on your dog normally and pull it - what does it do?
It pulls tight around her neck - and pulls her head up towards you.
Reverse the choke and pull it normally - you will find that it is not having much of an effect as you are standing above the dog.
Stomp it down with your foot - the leverage is pulling in the right direction - DOWN!!!
The keyring loop holds the choke in exactly the right position for immeadiate effectiveness!
OUTLAW-1 said:
yes she does know the down comand and no and belive she know no means know and is very obidient bar this one thing
only one iv had trobl with is stay she the hardes do iv ever had to teach the stay comand too she know it but refuses to stay and runs after me
Okay teaching the dog to stay - She is clearly a bit insecure of the fact that you are walking away from her!
Easily sorted - You need a groundspike (proper screw in spike for ground chaining a dog) and 50 feet of rope.
Put the choke on the dog upside down with the key ring attached, feed one end of the rope through the top loop of the spike and tie it secureley to the choke. Put thnbe dog in the down position and give the stay command.
Take 10 steps backwards - If the dog moves - a firm tug on the rope and STAY!
If and when she eventually stays walk back to the dog and praise her - DO NOT call the dog to you at this point - you have got to make the dog realise that you might walk away from her - but you will return!
Move on to 20 then 30 then 40 steps - once you have taught her that stay means stay vaary your tactics start to recall her so that she comes to you and sometimes you go back to her - this will teach her to await your command - If she moves towards you when you are half way back without you telling her to tug the rope, STAY! and walk away again - she will soon realise that you wont return to her until she obeys you.
OUTLAW-1 said:
in some ways i may have not choked her as hard as i shold do not wanting to be seen as cruel when im out as her neck being the size it is it takes a dam good yanking before she notices its getting yanked.
You could always try a rolled leather choke
>> Edited by OUTLAW-1 on Monday 9th January 06:07[/quote]
Aotlaw, is she aggressive when kids walk past or just adults. Kids are easy prey, if she ignores them then it affirms the guarding behaviour and maybe didmisses the prey idea. Just a thought.
Also, this could now be learned behabiour which is hard to break into because it happens so instantly. I think the choke method is an aversion therapy, your siren would work for a while until the dog got used to it. With the choke the dog knows it's you holding her down and you decide when to let her up. Maybe the siren should have been backed up with a powerful reward like a pikey's arm to chew on. There are also those discs that you throw on the ground. I haven't seen those. Water pistol, maybe not such a good idea this time around. I agree with MM, you need something instant to get this dogs attention and to break the cycle.
Keep us posted.
Boosted.
Also, this could now be learned behabiour which is hard to break into because it happens so instantly. I think the choke method is an aversion therapy, your siren would work for a while until the dog got used to it. With the choke the dog knows it's you holding her down and you decide when to let her up. Maybe the siren should have been backed up with a powerful reward like a pikey's arm to chew on. There are also those discs that you throw on the ground. I haven't seen those. Water pistol, maybe not such a good idea this time around. I agree with MM, you need something instant to get this dogs attention and to break the cycle.
Keep us posted.
Boosted.
Boosted Ls1 said:
Is your dog as brave when he's off the lead and you aren't near him? Perhaps his flight option has been removed so all he can do is fight!
Boosted.
Yes he is brave, I used to walk him off the lead in the park until he started on other dogs. He once ran from one side of the park to the other (about 200 yards), cleared a 4 foot fence and chased another dog round until I managed to get hold of him. He seems to want to play but as soon as the other dog shows any sign of aggression, he attacks. He has never done any damage and only seems to use enough force to make the other dog submissive, but it is still worrying as I wouldn't want to have him put down if he hurt another dog badly.
marcos maniac said:
Yes it would work but as he is quite a bit older and If it is every time you encounter another dog try:
Prior to him going beserk (just as the other dog comes into range) put him in the down position (submissive) and hold him down (foot on the lead so he cant lift his head - you are the boss and should stand tall) hold him down until the other dog has gone past - if he tries to move whilst held down give the command NO! If he lays there being good with no noise - give lots of praise
Try it for a few days with you saying down and a gentle tug on the lead to get him down, then try giving the command just verbally and see if he will go down of his own free will if not keep helping him down for another few days - he is an old dog so will take a bit longer to learn something new.
After a few days of you holding him tightly down with your foot still continue putting him down but lift your foot 6-8 inches to see if takes advantage or has learnt what you expect - if he goes for the dog stamp the lead to the ground - and NO!
Persevere within a couple of weeks you should be able to just say 'down' and not need to put your foot on the lead.
I tried it today when he started looking hopeful as another dog entered the park. Although it was quite a distance from us it did seem to work and afterwards he sat down on my command.
He seems to have been trained quite well as far as sit, stay, down, etc. goes but he has been a working gun dog I don't know what other commands he would know or may have been used.
It's just that when he sees another dog, or any animal for that matter, his brain shuts down and and he has to go after it, same as Outlaws dog, totaly deaf to anything.
Thanks for the advice anyway.
>> Edited by falcemob on Monday 9th January 13:56
falcemob said:
I tried it today when he started looking hopeful as another dog entered the park. Although it was quite a distance from us it did seem to work and afterwards he sat down on my command.
He seems to have been trained quite well as far as sit, stay, down, etc. goes but he has been a working gun dog I don't know what other commands he would know or may have been used.
It's just that when he sees another dog, or any animal for that matter, his brain shuts down and and he has to go after it.
Thanks for the advice anyway.
Do you get any response from clicking your fingers??
Try it! click of the fingers and point to the ground.
Its hard to guess what the dog would commands the dog would have been trained with - different people use diffent things. my dogs switch on to the Command - WATCH HIM! Some will bite with a Command STAND STILL! others with the command STOP HIM - I have worked with another that will bite a leg with a Command DONT KICK MY DOG
When retrieving a gun dog may have been taught to drop/release a retreived item with either DROP/RELEASE/LEAVE/LEAVE IT
How did your dog behave when you put him down - did he try to get the other dog?
You could also try DOWN, followed by LEAVE IT in a stern/commanding voice as the other dog gets closer repeat the LEAVE IT
Boosted Ls1 said:
Aotlaw, is she aggressive when kids walk past or just adults. Kids are easy prey, if she ignores them then it affirms the guarding behaviour and maybe didmisses the prey idea. Just a thought.
Also, this could now be learned behabiour which is hard to break into because it happens so instantly. I think the choke method is an aversion therapy, your siren would work for a while until the dog got used to it. With the choke the dog knows it's you holding her down and you decide when to let her up. Maybe the siren should have been backed up with a powerful reward like a pikey's arm to chew on. There are also those discs that you throw on the ground. I haven't seen those. Water pistol, maybe not such a good idea this time around. I agree with MM, you need something instant to get this dogs attention and to break the cycle.
Keep us posted.
Boosted.
yes running and fast moving kids yes it defenatly prey drive she would jump on given the chance
will attack cars driving by hates push bikes shes on anything that moves quick
it defaintly preydrive as well over other things
>> Edited by OUTLAW-1 on Monday 9th January 15:57
marcos maniac afteryearly post i took out for her morning walk and used the foot on chain and is seemed to start to work.
later stop to chat to another dog walker anishaly she went for her footed chain kept shouted nowhen she looked and then relised her
stood talking woth other own and she stayed calm with a min or 2 approched other own asking for a fuss
3rd time foot trick was use and i think it started to sink in a bit
it helped own had dog as she loves other dogs and is not agresive to dogs at at.
so so far so good
later stop to chat to another dog walker anishaly she went for her footed chain kept shouted nowhen she looked and then relised her
stood talking woth other own and she stayed calm with a min or 2 approched other own asking for a fuss
3rd time foot trick was use and i think it started to sink in a bit
it helped own had dog as she loves other dogs and is not agresive to dogs at at.
so so far so good
When I put the dog down, he was quite submissive although the other dog was a fair way off so he wasn't pulling too much in the first place. When I just used the command Down, he sat but wouldn't go down on all fours. At home I have to use the command, Sit, then Down to make him go right down.
When his brain is in gear he is very well behaved and will sit and stay until I tell him otherwise.
The other problem is that I normally have my GSD with us when we go out and controlling two big dogs can be a handful but I may start taking them out individually until I can sort him out.
Once they go into selective deafness mode is there anything I can do to attract their attention? Shouting to them doesn't normally have any effect. The GSD BTW is a big softie, is scared of everything but frightens the life out of people purely by his size alone and will be led by the other dog into tugging and barking when on the lead.
When his brain is in gear he is very well behaved and will sit and stay until I tell him otherwise.
The other problem is that I normally have my GSD with us when we go out and controlling two big dogs can be a handful but I may start taking them out individually until I can sort him out.
Once they go into selective deafness mode is there anything I can do to attract their attention? Shouting to them doesn't normally have any effect. The GSD BTW is a big softie, is scared of everything but frightens the life out of people purely by his size alone and will be led by the other dog into tugging and barking when on the lead.
Gassing Station | The Pie & Piston Archive | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff