Where did it all go wrong????
Discussion
I was moochin' and a googlin' when I stumbled upon the following photos
www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/full/fbj_xr219_boscombe.jpg
www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/full/fbj_xr219_white_city.jpg
and I began to wonder somewhat depressingly where did it all go wrong? The TSR2 had performance to keep up with today's best in the 50's!!!!
In 1963 the MOD ordered then cancelled the P1154. They bought American Phantoms instead.
The P1154 was a harrier equivalent but supersonic, they still haven't got a supersonic vertical take-off plane in service (unless in a steep dive)
We really led the world in so many areas. What on earth brought us to where we are today?
www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/full/fbj_xr219_boscombe.jpg
www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/full/fbj_xr219_white_city.jpg
and I began to wonder somewhat depressingly where did it all go wrong? The TSR2 had performance to keep up with today's best in the 50's!!!!
In 1963 the MOD ordered then cancelled the P1154. They bought American Phantoms instead.
The P1154 was a harrier equivalent but supersonic, they still haven't got a supersonic vertical take-off plane in service (unless in a steep dive)
We really led the world in so many areas. What on earth brought us to where we are today?
The 60's came along and everyone grew facial hair, smoked weed and wore stupid floppy hats, so no one could be arse'd.
The came the 70's where everyone had really bad brown suits, wore NHS glasses and they were all on strike or were crap managers.
Then came the Thatcher years.
Then came the 90's.
Now we have the Numpties.
Dynamism (and probably the ability to spell it), risk taking and freedom to think have been replaced by Health and Safety, Bureaucracy and fining you for doing anything the Government don't want you to.
I forgot to mention back in the 50's the UK produced stuff, now we "outsource" and run Call Centres.
>> Edited by vetteheadracer on Thursday 15th December 13:05
The came the 70's where everyone had really bad brown suits, wore NHS glasses and they were all on strike or were crap managers.
Then came the Thatcher years.
Then came the 90's.
Now we have the Numpties.
Dynamism (and probably the ability to spell it), risk taking and freedom to think have been replaced by Health and Safety, Bureaucracy and fining you for doing anything the Government don't want you to.
I forgot to mention back in the 50's the UK produced stuff, now we "outsource" and run Call Centres.
>> Edited by vetteheadracer on Thursday 15th December 13:05
Short answer - pressure from the USA and a UK Government determined to buy votes in the short term with social welfare schemes rather than investing in an industry with which it was ethically uncomfortable. Then, as now, socialists spouted lies, the lie in that case being that the TSR2 was a technical failure - as an example Denis Healey gloatingly announcing that the TSR2 tail had failed in testing - in fact it had had to be tested to destruction because it was the only way the stress limits could be found, so far were they beyond design spec.
Looking on the bright side we may see a Buccaneer flying in British skies again next year
Looking on the bright side we may see a Buccaneer flying in British skies again next year
yertis said:
Short answer - pressure from the USA and a UK Government determined to buy votes in the short term with social welfare schemes rather than investing in an industry with which it was ethically uncomfortable. Then, as now, socialists spouted lies, the lie in that case being that the TSR2 was a technical failure - as an example Denis Healey gloatingly announcing that the TSR2 tail had failed in testing - in fact it had had to be tested to destruction because it was the only way the stress limits could be found, so far were they beyond design spec.
Looking on the bright side we may see a Buccaneer flying in British skies again next year
Yeah I saw that, seems the CAA have finally relented, I remember climbing in Ennerdale in the Lakes when two came down the valley and I looked DOWN into the cockpits Brilliant!
vetteheadracer said:
The 60's came along and everyone grew facial hair, smoked weed and wore stupid floppy hats, so no one could be arse'd.
The came the 70's where everyone had really bad brown suits, wore NHS glasses and they were all on strike or were crap managers.
Then came the Thatcher years.
Then came the 90's.
Now we have the Numpties.
That sums it up quite well really
Eric Mc!
TSR-2 would have been a very capable aircraft - eventually. The specification for the plane was issued in 1958/59 and it actually first flew in 1965. On every single flight it made there were serious technical problems, particularly with the undercarriage. However, I'm sure they would have been sorted out.
TSR-2 (and P1154 and all the other projects) were axed, not because there was anythiung wrong with them, but because Britain was financially broke in the mid 1960s. Indeed, in 1967, Harold Wilson had to devalue the pound and seek a massive loan from the International Monetary Fund. Most politicians felt at that time that the country simply could not afford massively expensive projects like TSR-2 or even Concorde.
P1154 also had problems because the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy refused to support it proper;y. The RAF felt that a supersonic vertical take off aircraft would do everything less efficiently than a normal aircraft and the navy did not want it as they were lobbying for two large Forrestal style aircraft carriers and vertical take off aircraft didn't need big ships. P1154 was therefore canned (although the navy never did get their big carriers - they wew axed too).
With the RAF and RN showing no interest whatsoever in vertical take off combat aircraft (we are talking 1963/64 here), it was the US Marines who came to the rescue. They wanted a small vertical take offclose air support aircraft to use from their small helicopter support ships and the Hawker P1127/Kestrel seemed an ideal basis to start. A tripartite squadron was set up in 1964 to test the feasibility of using vertical take off planes in realistic combat situations. By 1966, the US Marines and the RAF were convinced that there was something in this VTOL stuff and a fully fledged combat version of the Kestrel, called the Harrier, was ordered into production for both the US Marines and the RAF.
The rest is history.
TSR-2 (and P1154 and all the other projects) were axed, not because there was anythiung wrong with them, but because Britain was financially broke in the mid 1960s. Indeed, in 1967, Harold Wilson had to devalue the pound and seek a massive loan from the International Monetary Fund. Most politicians felt at that time that the country simply could not afford massively expensive projects like TSR-2 or even Concorde.
P1154 also had problems because the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy refused to support it proper;y. The RAF felt that a supersonic vertical take off aircraft would do everything less efficiently than a normal aircraft and the navy did not want it as they were lobbying for two large Forrestal style aircraft carriers and vertical take off aircraft didn't need big ships. P1154 was therefore canned (although the navy never did get their big carriers - they wew axed too).
With the RAF and RN showing no interest whatsoever in vertical take off combat aircraft (we are talking 1963/64 here), it was the US Marines who came to the rescue. They wanted a small vertical take offclose air support aircraft to use from their small helicopter support ships and the Hawker P1127/Kestrel seemed an ideal basis to start. A tripartite squadron was set up in 1964 to test the feasibility of using vertical take off planes in realistic combat situations. By 1966, the US Marines and the RAF were convinced that there was something in this VTOL stuff and a fully fledged combat version of the Kestrel, called the Harrier, was ordered into production for both the US Marines and the RAF.
The rest is history.
vetteheadracer said:
...now we "outsource" and run Call Centres.
We seem to have lost the initiative on that. Now we get calls from men unconvincingly claiming to be called Peter, attempting to sell us something. I think it's the same Peter who answers the phone when you ring the bank. Peter sounds unnervingly like a motorboat from the 1950s.
BossCerbera said:
Now we get calls from men unconvincingly claiming to be called Peter,
often with more than a hint of the sub-continent about their accent, I mean c'mon Peter? we've had asian names over here for a while now, if your name's Sanjeev of Rajesh or whatever, that's fine - if you can't be truthful about what your bloody name is why should I trust you on anything else?
I visited Cranfield in the mid-seventies and there was a TSR2 on the tarmac - I have a photograph of it somewhere. They had hidden it over the other side of the site when Dennis Healey's hit-squad turned up with destruction orders, if I remember rightly. I was told, or I 'think' I was told, that TSR2 would fly at Mach2 at fifty feet fully automatically. Pretty impressive 'nap of the earth flying'.
Eric will no doubt put me right where applicable. It could well have been ordure of the male cow, I know not, but Eric will.
Eric will no doubt put me right where applicable. It could well have been ordure of the male cow, I know not, but Eric will.
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