education reform
Discussion
schools are already selective against the minority.
there will be no education for special needs children if this paper is allowed through government.
Which is fine if you are lucky enough not to be blessed with special needs children.
and not acceptable in a just and fair society
for the politcally correct it will be special needsist.
society already lets down these individuals..
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?typ
Discuss!!!!
>> Edited by jessica on Thursday 17th November 22:37
there will be no education for special needs children if this paper is allowed through government.
Which is fine if you are lucky enough not to be blessed with special needs children.
and not acceptable in a just and fair society
for the politcally correct it will be special needsist.
society already lets down these individuals..
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?typ
Discuss!!!!
>> Edited by jessica on Thursday 17th November 22:37
Sorry, but i totally disagree. It's the silent majority that is most victimised by schools in this country. If you go to school regularly, do most of your work and don't get in trouble you get exactly ZERO attention, and the teachers couldn't give a shit if you're not fulfilling your potential, being bullied or have other problems. They're the kids who are really being let down, the children causing trouble or with a registered disability (including the likes of dyslexia) seem to get 10x more attention and help than your "average" kid.
Cheers,
Rob.
Cheers,
Rob.
Rob_F said:
Sorry, but i totally disagree. It's the silent majority that is most victimised by schools in this country. If you go to school regularly, do most of your work and don't get in trouble you get exactly ZERO attention, and the teachers couldn't give a shit if you're not fulfilling your potential, being bullied or have other problems. They're the kids who are really being let down, the children causing trouble or with a registered disability (including the likes of dyslexia) seem to get 10x more attention and help than your "average" kid.
Cheers,
Rob.
well that is another government issue..
because integration doesnt work either.
children with special need require special teaching methods and then maybe the children you mention will get treated appropriatley also.
I have three normal kids too, so i have to see it from both sides. I want what is best for all.
You said "discuss" so it's not a seperate issue as far as i can see! If teachers are allowed to run their own school properly then maybe there will be less kids who bully, disrupt and otherwise ruin the lives of average kids in school. At the moment schools can hardly kick a kid out for 2 minutes without the LEA forcing them back in again, and it's quite rediculous that the LEA has control over a schools budget - who knows best, teachers or jumped up pen pushers?
Seems like a good thing to me, and to put this into perspective i got suspended from school a few times and "internal suspension" every other week it seemed so i'm hardly an angel.
Cheers,
Rob.
Seems like a good thing to me, and to put this into perspective i got suspended from school a few times and "internal suspension" every other week it seemed so i'm hardly an angel.
Cheers,
Rob.
Rob_F said:
You said "discuss" so it's not a seperate issue as far as i can see! If teachers are allowed to run their own school properly then maybe there will be less kids who bully, disrupt and otherwise ruin the lives of average kids in school. At the moment schools can hardly kick a kid out for 2 minutes without the LEA forcing them back in again, and it's quite rediculous that the LEA has control over a schools budget - who knows best, teachers or jumped up pen pushers?
Seems like a good thing to me, and to put this into perspective i got suspended from school a few times and "internal suspension" every other week it seemed so i'm hardly an angel.
Cheers,
Rob.
This is well meaning but daft I'm afraid. I absolutely agree that teachers should be allowed to run their own schools properly, but it is the REDUCTION of the influence of LEAs (which used to employ a professional inspectorate by the way) and the increase of central government interference, league tables, handing more and more control to governors (who tend to be political appointees or local busybodies) at the expense of the autonomy of Head Teachers that is b
ing things up. LEAs are NOT in general "penpushers" - they contain large numbers of professionally qualified advisors and support staff whose efforts to HELP teachers to run their schools properly is increasingly frustrated by central government controls and attempts to increase "parent power". (Which favours the middle classes at the expense of others - a good thing perhaps if you are middle class, but a poor solution to the country's problems of having a poorly educated workforce).
Ever since Thatcher (who hated "professionals"
, successive governments have eroded professional peoples' ability to control their work and handed more and more control to central bureaucracies, collections of "elected" - more often self-selecting - "consumers", or private companies whose interest is more in profit than service quality.Prof Beard said:
I absolutely agree that teachers should be allowed to run their own schools properly, but it is the REDUCTION of the influence of LEAs (which used to employ a professional inspectorate by the way) and the increase of central government interference, league tables, handing more and more control to governors (who tend to be political appointees or local busybodies) at the expense of the autonomy of Head Teachers that is b
Sorry, i read from the article...
article said:...that *schools* would be in charge of what they did, infact the whole tone of the article gives the impression that headteachers would be given more power at the expense of LEA workers. I probably don't have as much knowledge of the education system as you do, granted.
The education bill would free schools from local authority control, giving them control over their budgets and offering parents a greater say in their management.
profbeard said:
LEAs are NOT in general "penpushers" - they contain large numbers of professionally qualified advisors and support staff whose efforts to HELP teachers to run their schools
I'm afraid the impression i get of most publicly run, office based institutions is not, on the whole, a good one. Anyway, the point i was getting across is that they're not "teachers in the field" as it were, unless i'm mistaken.
profbeard said:
properly is increasingly frustrated by central government controls and attempts to increase "parent power". (Which favours the middle classes at the expense of others - a good thing perhaps if you are middle class, but a poor solution to the country's problems of having a poorly educated workforce)
I wouldn't be classed under any socioecomic classification system as "middle class", infact, i barely reach "working class". I can appreciate that the parents who get involved in these sort of things will tend to be aspirational local "bigwigs", thus middle-class, but why, exactly is this a bad thing? Are we to presume that the middle classes don't have children who have the same troubles and lives as other children, because i'd certainly say this is not true; anyway, they'll be no evidence either way apart from people who work with LEAs saying it's a bad thing, and parent governers saying the opposite i'd wager!
profbeard said:
Ever since Thatcher (who hated "professionals"
This sounded like a move to me in the right direction to me, however i will be the first to admit to not being an expert - and the link to the news story is and "overview" at best. Might be interesting if there's a more in depth report somewhere.
Cheers,
Rob.
Rob_F said:
Sorry, i read from the article...article said:...that *schools* would be in charge of what they did, infact the whole tone of the article gives the impression that headteachers would be given more power at the expense of LEA workers. I probably don't have as much knowledge of the education system as you do, granted.
The education bill would free schools from local authority control, giving them control over their budgets and offering parents a greater say in their management.
I'm afraid the reality is not that. Certainly the influence of LEAs would be more/completely removed, but you'll find, if you ask practicing teachers and heads, that these proposals are more likely to move power from LEAs to Governing Bodies and Private Companies than to Heads
Rob_F said:
LEAs are NOT in general "penpushers" - they contain large numbers of professionally qualified advisors and support staff whose efforts to HELP teachers to run their schools
I'm afraid the impression i get of most publicly run, office based institutions is not, on the whole, a good one. Anyway, the point i was getting across is that they're not "teachers in the field" as it were, unless i'm mistaken.
True, but many of them are experienced ex-teachers in the field. For example the Head of one of local high schools, who is well regarded, recently left the schools to join the LEA.
Rob_F said:
properly is increasingly frustrated by central government controls and attempts to increase "parent power". (Which favours the middle classes at the expense of others - a good thing perhaps if you are middle class, but a poor solution to the country's problems of having a poorly educated workforce)
I wouldn't be classed under any socioecomic classification system as "middle class", infact, i barely reach "working class". I can appreciate that the parents who get involved in these sort of things will tend to be aspirational local "bigwigs", thus middle-class, but why, exactly is this a bad thing? Are we to presume that the middle classes don't have children who have the same troubles and lives as other children, because i'd certainly say this is not true; anyway, they'll be no evidence either way apart from people who work with LEAs saying it's a bad thing, and parent governers saying the opposite i'd wager!
I suggest you ask teachers and parents in mixed or working class catchment areas
Rob_F said:
Ever since Thatcher (who hated "professionals"
This sounded like a move to me in the right direction to me, however i will be the first to admit to not being an expert - and the link to the news story is and "overview" at best. Might be interesting if there's a more in depth report somewhere.
I would argue that it is a mistake to run public services like health and education as businesses (run them in a business-like manner by all means though) - as the job of a business is to make a profit. We don't need such services to be profitable, just good value/results for money.
>> Edited by Prof Beard on Friday 18th November 00:30
I see now Jessica, so you are opposed to giving schools more control over their admissions procedures because you feel the schools will discriminate against special needs pupils.
Some thoughts; I fully agree that wherever possible power should be taken from the LEA's and given to schools. Furthermore I fully support a voucher system of education whereby the money follows each individual pupil.
Pupils with special needs could surely be dealt with under such a system by allocating a higher voucher value, therefore paying for the higher staffing ratios needed at a 'special' school, or the additional support they need in a mainstream school.
Some thoughts; I fully agree that wherever possible power should be taken from the LEA's and given to schools. Furthermore I fully support a voucher system of education whereby the money follows each individual pupil.
Pupils with special needs could surely be dealt with under such a system by allocating a higher voucher value, therefore paying for the higher staffing ratios needed at a 'special' school, or the additional support they need in a mainstream school.
Isn't this also linked into the proposal to have schools sponsored by commercial or religious groups, i.e. making the schools provide their own funding? Something which I am wildly opposed to because it basically means that the group can dictate what's taught in the schools. Very dangerous, IMO.
The trouble is of course putting a value on the "disability". Also i believe that currently schools already get more money for "special" kids anyway, and the trouble is it's easy for schools to label a child as having ADD and giving them a support tutor rather than being honest about it and saying "look, this kid is totally undisciplined and needs the parents to give him/her a 
good smack" and excluding them from school. Unfortunately there are a lot of kids in the latter catagory that make school a misery for a lot of kids, and having a extra helper in so they can say "well done little Johnny for not setting fire to Maria today" isn't in anyway ever going to help society, the school, or the child......
Cheers,
Rob.
good smack" and excluding them from school. Unfortunately there are a lot of kids in the latter catagory that make school a misery for a lot of kids, and having a extra helper in so they can say "well done little Johnny for not setting fire to Maria today" isn't in anyway ever going to help society, the school, or the child...... Cheers,
Rob.
Rob_F said:
The trouble is of course putting a value on the "disability". Also i believe that currently schools already get more money for "special" kids anyway, and the trouble is it's easy for schools to label a child as having ADD and giving them a support tutor rather than being honest about it and saying "look, this kid is totally undisciplined and needs the parents to give him/her a good smack" and excluding them from school. Unfortunately there are a lot of kids in the latter catagory that make school a misery for a lot of kids, and having a extra helper in so they can say "well done little Johnny for not setting fire to Maria today" isn't in anyway ever going to help society, the school, or the child......
Cheers,
Rob.
I am afraid that ADD and ADHD and Dsylexia are all on the autistic spectrum and the attitude that smaking will make this better is uninformed,and not usefull at all.
It is a proven fact that children with these afflictions receiving the correct teaching methods and support. achieve in the long term much more than the average child. most of them are creative and imaginative,and have a lot to offer our society.
If the government has its way and lets schools run themselves these children will be excluded and no further provision made.
this is not acceptable.
all children are special and all children have needs.some more than others.
Jaglover said:
Tony Blair has been defending his proposals Jessica and says that councils will be able to report schools to an independent adjudicator if they breach national admissions guidelines.
That is what the school system definately needs and independant adjuticator.
Because at the moment whatever the head says goes.
you can complain to the school governing body and they can in theory agree with you. But the head can and in some cases often does overrule the governers.
So at the moment the buck stops at the head.
I would be very pleased if we could have an independant adjudicator. I will be voicing these concerns soon with the powers that be.
It wont affect my children but for those that follow them there needs to be a system where all children disabled or not get a fair crack at a fair education.
I agree that putting disabled children in mainstream doesn,t often work and actually does a dis-service to the disabled child and the normal children also.
Rob_F said:
The trouble is of course putting a value on the "disability". Also i believe that currently schools already get more money for "special" kids anyway, and the trouble is it's easy for schools to label a child as having ADD and giving them a support tutor rather than being honest about it and saying "look, this kid is totally undisciplined and needs the parents to give him/her a
Cheers,
Rob.
kids dont get the labels these days unless they have been assessed by numerous individuals,(you try getting your child statemented it takes months and months. There will always be some kids whos bad parents will pass the buck and say oh johnney has ADD when in actual fact johnney is just a little sod.
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