This abortion stuff
Discussion
There are some absolute gems on the BBC's "Have Your Say" page at the moment, in a thread about whether the law should be changed to ensure parents are told if their under-16 daughter is having an abortion...
It gets off to a great start in the first sentence which plays on the supposed absurdity that an under sixteen year old can't smoke, yet can have an operation. Of course this juxtaposition only works if you believe that 'having an operation' is somehow worse than smoking, which is kind of stupid. And by 'kind of' I mean 'very'. Imagine: "Oh yeah - you keep having a go at me about my smoking, but let's not forget that earlier in the year you had an operation! So!"
The second sentence comes out of nowhere - a product of total paranoia and insecurity. I can't think of any examples of the UK being 'the laughing stock of the world', except maybe at brief points in the past during disastrous sports tournaments. Keith strikes me as one of those people, who whenever he hears people laughing, imagines they're laughing at him.
My favourite, though, is the final statement, which ramps the stakes absolutely sky high. "We have less moral or ethical backbone than any other nation, anywhere in the world". Regardless of how you define 'moral or ethical backbone' (and lets remember that deciding to allow teenage girls to have this operation in privacy actually represents a strong ethical decision on the part of the medical profession), I think Keith's assertion is open to question. Maybe we should move Keith to Somalia, for example, a country that has lack effective central government since the nineties (I'm sure of my facts on this - it was in Black Hawk Down), where warlords train children to fight in their militia, where food is hoarded and starvation of the population is used as a weapon, and Keith can asses whether this represents a stronger moral backbone than a health system trying to help teenagers in trouble.
I really like that last bit that tries to mesh ideas about doctors performing abortions, with doctors doing fertility treatment. What's his point? That somehow if we stopped abortions and fertility treatment then it would all come out in the wash? That individual circumstances are irrelevant in the face of a net gain to society of healthy babies? Also - what's to do with that figure on the immigrants coming into the country? Is he suggesting that we're getting in immigrants to stop the gap created by teenage girls killing their babies? That if we didn't allow abortions, than we wouldn't have to allow immigrants and refugees into the country.
Here's one of my favourites:
Not sure that metaphor works for you there, fella.
This next one is actually very sensible, though the last line reminds me of the bit in Starship Troopers where the verteran with no arms or legs sighs nostalgically "Mobile infantry made me the man I am today!"...
So there you have it - a catalogue of stupidity from Britain today. You can debate the issue yourselves if that's what makes you happy, or post your own snippets of idiocy from elsewhere on the internet. Really, though I think you should just applaud me for wittily putting down and sneering at people who can't answer me back, when all they've done is express an opinion on an emotive subject. The poor lambs
>> Edited by Harry Flashman on Thursday 10th November 14:46
Keith said:
You can't buy a packet of cigarettes and smoke, but you can have an operation. No wonder this country is the laughing stock of the world. We have less moral or ethical backbone than any other nation, anywhere in the world." Keith Hutchinson, Sunderland
It gets off to a great start in the first sentence which plays on the supposed absurdity that an under sixteen year old can't smoke, yet can have an operation. Of course this juxtaposition only works if you believe that 'having an operation' is somehow worse than smoking, which is kind of stupid. And by 'kind of' I mean 'very'. Imagine: "Oh yeah - you keep having a go at me about my smoking, but let's not forget that earlier in the year you had an operation! So!"
The second sentence comes out of nowhere - a product of total paranoia and insecurity. I can't think of any examples of the UK being 'the laughing stock of the world', except maybe at brief points in the past during disastrous sports tournaments. Keith strikes me as one of those people, who whenever he hears people laughing, imagines they're laughing at him.
My favourite, though, is the final statement, which ramps the stakes absolutely sky high. "We have less moral or ethical backbone than any other nation, anywhere in the world". Regardless of how you define 'moral or ethical backbone' (and lets remember that deciding to allow teenage girls to have this operation in privacy actually represents a strong ethical decision on the part of the medical profession), I think Keith's assertion is open to question. Maybe we should move Keith to Somalia, for example, a country that has lack effective central government since the nineties (I'm sure of my facts on this - it was in Black Hawk Down), where warlords train children to fight in their militia, where food is hoarded and starvation of the population is used as a weapon, and Keith can asses whether this represents a stronger moral backbone than a health system trying to help teenagers in trouble.
Rob said:
The real reason why a waiting list for, say, a hip operation is so long is because the said specialist is too busy performing abortions. Why is the human race so consistently disappointing?
186,000 babies killed last year and only a tiny fraction imperfect. The official immigration figure for last year is almost the same number. We are told we need foreign doctors and nurses because of a shortfall. Hardly surprising when the willingness to violate the Hippocratic oath and kill healthy babies in the womb is a career requirement. I wait thirteen weeks before I can see a consultant, presumably because the rest are too busy either killing babies or doing fertility treatments. Surreal.
I really like that last bit that tries to mesh ideas about doctors performing abortions, with doctors doing fertility treatment. What's his point? That somehow if we stopped abortions and fertility treatment then it would all come out in the wash? That individual circumstances are irrelevant in the face of a net gain to society of healthy babies? Also - what's to do with that figure on the immigrants coming into the country? Is he suggesting that we're getting in immigrants to stop the gap created by teenage girls killing their babies? That if we didn't allow abortions, than we wouldn't have to allow immigrants and refugees into the country.
Here's one of my favourites:
someone or other said:
"When kids drive a car and kill someone. They should be heald responsible.
This should be the case with underage sex."
Not sure that metaphor works for you there, fella.
This next one is actually very sensible, though the last line reminds me of the bit in Starship Troopers where the verteran with no arms or legs sighs nostalgically "Mobile infantry made me the man I am today!"...
survivor of an abortion said:
'When I was 16, I had an abortion. I didn't tell my family at the time as my Dad’s reaction scared me more than the procedure itself.
5 years later, I told my Mum - she thanked me for not telling her. She said I couldn't have coped on my own – she’d have had to help. She said she’d have been forced to tell my Dad - something that would have been catastrophic for our relationship. If there had been a risk to my confidentiality – It would have been even worse - I wouldn’t be where I am today.
So there you have it - a catalogue of stupidity from Britain today. You can debate the issue yourselves if that's what makes you happy, or post your own snippets of idiocy from elsewhere on the internet. Really, though I think you should just applaud me for wittily putting down and sneering at people who can't answer me back, when all they've done is express an opinion on an emotive subject. The poor lambs
>> Edited by Harry Flashman on Thursday 10th November 14:46
tinman0 said:I think that everyone should be forced to work in retail for a month or so. You will then have no doubt as to the ball-achingly stupid mentality of the majority of the mouth-breathers we share our country with.
i've stopped looking at "Your say" on news.bbc. it brings a tear to my eye when you realise how many idiots there are that we share this planet with.
wolves_wanderer said:
i've stopped looking at "Your say" on news.bbc. it brings a tear to my eye when you realise how many idiots there are that we share this planet with.
Seconded
Actually an under 16 year old is able to consent to medical treatment provided they have sufficient understanding and intelligence to understand the consequences etc. I think it was the House of Lords (not too sure without going through textbooks and am in middle of essay so shouldn't really be posting in the first place...) decided that there was no fixed age where someone can be said to have the ability to consent.
Just realised this is more to do with confidentiality so actually what i've written isn't particularly relevant, oh well.
Just realised this is more to do with confidentiality so actually what i've written isn't particularly relevant, oh well.
Gynaecologists do not do orthopaedic surgery and vice versa. Oh, and maybe the following might explain some of the shortages in the medical profession:
Workforce planning disaster could cause thousands of doctors to leave NHS, BMA warns
Press release date: Saturday, 25 Jun 2005 (BMA London)
Thousands of junior doctors could leave the NHS because of an emerging workforce planning disaster, the BMA warns today (Saturday, 25 June, 2005).
Competition for doctors’ training posts* in the NHS has become intense. Over a third of the 235 junior hospital doctors who responded to a BMA survey this month said they had not been offered jobs when their current contracts end in August. Six in ten said they would leave the NHS to work overseas if, in future, they were unable to get an appropriate training post. A third said they would consider leaving medicine altogether.
In recent years, the number of newly qualified doctors and doctors from overseas seeking training posts has increased. However, the problem is also partly the result of the move to the new ‘Modernising Medical Careers’ training system, under which the middle grade ‘Senior House Officer’ post is being abolished. Instead, junior doctors will begin their careers in two-year foundation programmes, before entering specialist training.
It is estimated that in 2007 between 5000 and 10000 doctors who are currently Senior House Officers will be unable to slot into specialist training posts, but will also be too far advanced in their training to move into foundation programmes. Their only option for employment as NHS doctors would be in non-training jobs, which lack the career prospects of training posts, can lead to de-skilling, and do not always guarantee the same pay and conditions.
Survey respondents were asked what action they would take if they were unable to find an accredited training post in future. Six in ten (60%) said they would consider moving abroad to continue their training and a third (33%) said they would consider leaving medicine as a career.
However, with the move to the new system, which takes effect on 1 August this year, hospital trusts have already stopped offering long-term SHO posts. Competition for jobs has intensified, with some vacancies attracting over a thousand applications. Over a third of the junior doctors surveyed (35.8%) did not have a job lined up in August.
Commenting on the problem, Mr Simon Eccles, chairman of the BMA’s Junior Doctors Committee, said:
“It’s a huge irony that the UK is short of doctors, hospitals are overstretched, and still there aren’t enough training posts to go round. People are queuing up to study medicine, and thousands of doctors from overseas want to work in the NHS. It’s absurd that such a huge amount of talent – which has cost millions of taxpayers’ pounds to nurture - could go to waste. The government seems to think that doctors will be content with jobs that provide no training, but our research shows many will leave the NHS instead.”
The issue will be discussed at the BMA’s annual conference in Manchester next Monday (27 June, 2:35pm) where a motion warns of the creation of a new “lost tribe” of doctors. The Association has long called for improvements to NHS workforce planning, and is currently looking into measures to address the problem in the immediate term, including longer specialist training programmes – which would make it easier for doctors to slot into specialist training during the transition period - and an expansion in numbers of training posts.
*Notes to editors
1. Junior doctors are currently employed in three training posts – pre-registration house officer, senior house officer, and specialist registrar, before they can qualify as consultants or GPs
2. Senior house officers and first year (pre-registration) house officers were invited to respond to the survey through the BMA website between 16 and 22 June. The results are based on 235 valid responses.
3. There are around 49,000 junior doctors in the U.K.
4. The full research is available from the press office
Workforce planning disaster could cause thousands of doctors to leave NHS, BMA warns
Press release date: Saturday, 25 Jun 2005 (BMA London)
Thousands of junior doctors could leave the NHS because of an emerging workforce planning disaster, the BMA warns today (Saturday, 25 June, 2005).
Competition for doctors’ training posts* in the NHS has become intense. Over a third of the 235 junior hospital doctors who responded to a BMA survey this month said they had not been offered jobs when their current contracts end in August. Six in ten said they would leave the NHS to work overseas if, in future, they were unable to get an appropriate training post. A third said they would consider leaving medicine altogether.
In recent years, the number of newly qualified doctors and doctors from overseas seeking training posts has increased. However, the problem is also partly the result of the move to the new ‘Modernising Medical Careers’ training system, under which the middle grade ‘Senior House Officer’ post is being abolished. Instead, junior doctors will begin their careers in two-year foundation programmes, before entering specialist training.
It is estimated that in 2007 between 5000 and 10000 doctors who are currently Senior House Officers will be unable to slot into specialist training posts, but will also be too far advanced in their training to move into foundation programmes. Their only option for employment as NHS doctors would be in non-training jobs, which lack the career prospects of training posts, can lead to de-skilling, and do not always guarantee the same pay and conditions.
Survey respondents were asked what action they would take if they were unable to find an accredited training post in future. Six in ten (60%) said they would consider moving abroad to continue their training and a third (33%) said they would consider leaving medicine as a career.
However, with the move to the new system, which takes effect on 1 August this year, hospital trusts have already stopped offering long-term SHO posts. Competition for jobs has intensified, with some vacancies attracting over a thousand applications. Over a third of the junior doctors surveyed (35.8%) did not have a job lined up in August.
Commenting on the problem, Mr Simon Eccles, chairman of the BMA’s Junior Doctors Committee, said:
“It’s a huge irony that the UK is short of doctors, hospitals are overstretched, and still there aren’t enough training posts to go round. People are queuing up to study medicine, and thousands of doctors from overseas want to work in the NHS. It’s absurd that such a huge amount of talent – which has cost millions of taxpayers’ pounds to nurture - could go to waste. The government seems to think that doctors will be content with jobs that provide no training, but our research shows many will leave the NHS instead.”
The issue will be discussed at the BMA’s annual conference in Manchester next Monday (27 June, 2:35pm) where a motion warns of the creation of a new “lost tribe” of doctors. The Association has long called for improvements to NHS workforce planning, and is currently looking into measures to address the problem in the immediate term, including longer specialist training programmes – which would make it easier for doctors to slot into specialist training during the transition period - and an expansion in numbers of training posts.
*Notes to editors
1. Junior doctors are currently employed in three training posts – pre-registration house officer, senior house officer, and specialist registrar, before they can qualify as consultants or GPs
2. Senior house officers and first year (pre-registration) house officers were invited to respond to the survey through the BMA website between 16 and 22 June. The results are based on 235 valid responses.
3. There are around 49,000 junior doctors in the U.K.
4. The full research is available from the press office
tinman0 said:
i've stopped looking at "Your say" on news.bbc. it brings a tear to my eye when you realise how many idiots there are that we share this planet with.
I know what you mean. Although I currently enjoy myself seeing just how contentious and inflammatory a statement I can get through their filtering techniques.
O God. I'm a troll!
Except anything I can manage is NOTHING in comparison to what's already on there.
>> Edited by Don on Thursday 10th November 16:31
wolves_wanderer said:
i've stopped looking at "Your say" on news.bbc. it brings a tear to my eye when you realise how many idiots there are that we share this planet with.
failing that try managing a group of them, is easier to manage a play group sometimes
Code Monkey said:
i've stopped looking at "Your say" on news.bbc. it brings a tear to my eye when you realise how many idiots there are that we share this planet with.
failing that try managing a group of them, is easier to manage a play group sometimes
I was on about the customers actually, but thinking back to some of my erstwhile colleagues you may have a point 
Never mind the doctors leaving; the secretarial staff and other ancillaries will be leaving in droves (or not bothering to join) with the new 'Agenda for change' nonsense...
downgrading staff and introducing competency testing being just two of the (primarily cost-cutting) measures being embraced with glee by our local NHS trust, £56 million in debt and climbing. Like saving a few thou a year on salaries will help FFS
How about sacking the witless (And overpaid) bastards who didn't call a halt at around ten mill, or twenty, or even £1M? No private company would stand for it.
downgrading staff and introducing competency testing being just two of the (primarily cost-cutting) measures being embraced with glee by our local NHS trust, £56 million in debt and climbing. Like saving a few thou a year on salaries will help FFS
How about sacking the witless (And overpaid) bastards who didn't call a halt at around ten mill, or twenty, or even £1M? No private company would stand for it.
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