Brown - the noose tightens
Discussion
Brown's silly postulations on the strength and future of the economy are beginning to rise up and bite him on the arse. He'll take the old Labour route out and raise taxes, and the taxes will go up and up as the economy gets weaker and weaker.
Blair will resign, Labour will hand over to Brown uncontested and a thoroughly pissed off middle England will show him the door.
Please, God, let it be true...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/14/nbrown14.xml
Brown refuses to rule out tax rises as economy slows
By George Jones, Political Editor
(Filed: 14/10/2005)
Gordon Brown refused to rule out possible tax rises yesterday after receiving fresh warnings that economic growth was slowing.
The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development cautioned that Mr Brown may have to raise taxes or cut public spending as the economy weakens over the coming year.
Gordon Brown said Europe was falling behind China and India
The influential international body downgraded its forecast for UK growth in 2005 from 2.5 per cent to 1.7 per cent - well below Mr Brown's Budget prediction of 3 - 3.5 per cent.
And a business survey published by the British Chambers of Commerce said the position of manufacturing had "worsened sharply".
The BCC said "alarming" manufacturing figures and a fall in confidence between July and September highlighted "acute threats" to business and called for a cut in interest rates.
The OECD said if Treasury expectations of improved corporate profitability to meet its tax projections failed to materialise, then "additional measures" - tax increases or spending cuts - would be needed for the Chancellor to meet his fiscal rules.
Mr Brown has already indicated that he recognises that the economy will fail to hit his ambitious Budget forecast, saying he will "update" the prediction in his pre-Budget report expected at the end of next month.
Interviewed on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Mr Brown was asked whether he could avoid raising taxes or being forced to cut public spending or increase borrowing. Mr Brown insisted that the Government's public spending programmes were affordable. He said: "They have been costed, they have been set out in detail, we are working within these spending programmes and therefore we will be able to afford what we have set out for the years right through to 2008."
Pressed on whether he could rule out tax rises before 2008, Mr Brown said: "I think at the last election, even the Conservative Party said they could make no absolute promises about these issues.
"The last person who did so was John Major, and he regretted it.''
He maintained that Britain's public finances were in a better position than those of Japan, America, France and Germany. Britain's economy was still growing and consumer spending continued to rise.
Treasury officials said later that Mr Brown did not expect or plan to raise taxes, but was simply repeating his traditional line that he could not rule out all eventualities.
George Osborne, the Conservative Treasury spokesman, said Mr Brown's refusal to rule out tax rises would "cast a shadow" over millions of hard-working families who would have to pay for the Chancellor's excessive borrowing.
He said Mr Brown had "stubbornly stuck" to his growth forecasts when everyone was telling him he was wrong. "Productivity growth has slumped. Business investment is at a record low and the British economy is growing slower than the average for other developed economies in the world,'' Mr Osborne said. David Willetts, the Conservative trade and industry spokesman, claimed that Mr Brown was in a "denial" about the true state of the British economy. He said the continuing problems of the manufacturing sector were "a matter of grave concern for everyone with a stake in the British economy".
Yesterday Mr Brown called on the European Union to face up to fundamental economic changes to enable it to grow faster and tackle unemployment.
In a paper published by the Treasury, he said "dramatic changes" were taking place in the global economy and no country or continent, however successful today, could take its long-term prosperity for granted.
He pointed to China and India's rise and said Europe was falling behind in skills, growth and enterprise.
The EU's initial goal of securing peace had been achieved and it should now focus on creating prosperity.
Mr Brown added: "The challenge is for Europe to move on from the older, inward-looking model to become a more flexible, reforming, open and globally-oriented Europe.''
Blair will resign, Labour will hand over to Brown uncontested and a thoroughly pissed off middle England will show him the door.
Please, God, let it be true...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/14/nbrown14.xml
Brown refuses to rule out tax rises as economy slows
By George Jones, Political Editor
(Filed: 14/10/2005)
Gordon Brown refused to rule out possible tax rises yesterday after receiving fresh warnings that economic growth was slowing.
The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development cautioned that Mr Brown may have to raise taxes or cut public spending as the economy weakens over the coming year.
Gordon Brown said Europe was falling behind China and India
The influential international body downgraded its forecast for UK growth in 2005 from 2.5 per cent to 1.7 per cent - well below Mr Brown's Budget prediction of 3 - 3.5 per cent.
And a business survey published by the British Chambers of Commerce said the position of manufacturing had "worsened sharply".
The BCC said "alarming" manufacturing figures and a fall in confidence between July and September highlighted "acute threats" to business and called for a cut in interest rates.
The OECD said if Treasury expectations of improved corporate profitability to meet its tax projections failed to materialise, then "additional measures" - tax increases or spending cuts - would be needed for the Chancellor to meet his fiscal rules.
Mr Brown has already indicated that he recognises that the economy will fail to hit his ambitious Budget forecast, saying he will "update" the prediction in his pre-Budget report expected at the end of next month.
Interviewed on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Mr Brown was asked whether he could avoid raising taxes or being forced to cut public spending or increase borrowing. Mr Brown insisted that the Government's public spending programmes were affordable. He said: "They have been costed, they have been set out in detail, we are working within these spending programmes and therefore we will be able to afford what we have set out for the years right through to 2008."
Pressed on whether he could rule out tax rises before 2008, Mr Brown said: "I think at the last election, even the Conservative Party said they could make no absolute promises about these issues.
"The last person who did so was John Major, and he regretted it.''
He maintained that Britain's public finances were in a better position than those of Japan, America, France and Germany. Britain's economy was still growing and consumer spending continued to rise.
Treasury officials said later that Mr Brown did not expect or plan to raise taxes, but was simply repeating his traditional line that he could not rule out all eventualities.
George Osborne, the Conservative Treasury spokesman, said Mr Brown's refusal to rule out tax rises would "cast a shadow" over millions of hard-working families who would have to pay for the Chancellor's excessive borrowing.
He said Mr Brown had "stubbornly stuck" to his growth forecasts when everyone was telling him he was wrong. "Productivity growth has slumped. Business investment is at a record low and the British economy is growing slower than the average for other developed economies in the world,'' Mr Osborne said. David Willetts, the Conservative trade and industry spokesman, claimed that Mr Brown was in a "denial" about the true state of the British economy. He said the continuing problems of the manufacturing sector were "a matter of grave concern for everyone with a stake in the British economy".
Yesterday Mr Brown called on the European Union to face up to fundamental economic changes to enable it to grow faster and tackle unemployment.
In a paper published by the Treasury, he said "dramatic changes" were taking place in the global economy and no country or continent, however successful today, could take its long-term prosperity for granted.
He pointed to China and India's rise and said Europe was falling behind in skills, growth and enterprise.
The EU's initial goal of securing peace had been achieved and it should now focus on creating prosperity.
Mr Brown added: "The challenge is for Europe to move on from the older, inward-looking model to become a more flexible, reforming, open and globally-oriented Europe.''
He (Brown) lashed it up before the election. Production output is the lowest for 30 years? or something like that I read somewhere. Unemployment took an unexpected sharp rise last month. It is all looking quite grim but the only thing people take notice of is the morgage intrest rate..
If that starts go rise to say 10% then people will sit up and take notice BUT they lowered the rate to try and "kickstart" (blairite speak) the spending and avoid a ression (sp?)
BUT Even if the rates do hit 10% the buck will be past to the Bank Of England and they wont take resposabilty for that one will they?
If that starts go rise to say 10% then people will sit up and take notice BUT they lowered the rate to try and "kickstart" (blairite speak) the spending and avoid a ression (sp?)
BUT Even if the rates do hit 10% the buck will be past to the Bank Of England and they wont take resposabilty for that one will they?
Given the timescale involved, it is hardly surprising that he won't rule out tax rises before 2008. He can't really be criticised for refusing to make any such commitment.
What I didn't like about the interview was his complete refusal to accept that the domestic economy had been propped up by property price rises and the consequential rise in spending shored up by credit.
The economy is in a far more precarious position than he lets on.
Too many goblins have remortgaged all of the equity out of their houses, "bought" big cars on balloon payment contracts and generally lived far beyond their means for thick end of a decade.
If Brown was a bit more honest about what was round the corner, then a lot of these muppets might have time to reign themselves in before it is too late.
It would only take a small rise in rates and a bit of a tumble in property prices to make tens of thousands of people default on all sorts of credit agreements.
I am waiting for the reposession auctions to start so that I can bag myself a few bargains.
What I didn't like about the interview was his complete refusal to accept that the domestic economy had been propped up by property price rises and the consequential rise in spending shored up by credit.
The economy is in a far more precarious position than he lets on.
Too many goblins have remortgaged all of the equity out of their houses, "bought" big cars on balloon payment contracts and generally lived far beyond their means for thick end of a decade.
If Brown was a bit more honest about what was round the corner, then a lot of these muppets might have time to reign themselves in before it is too late.
It would only take a small rise in rates and a bit of a tumble in property prices to make tens of thousands of people default on all sorts of credit agreements.
I am waiting for the reposession auctions to start so that I can bag myself a few bargains.
Mon Ami Mate said:
Gordon Brown said Europe was falling behind China and India
Of course. They work for a fraction of the money and are not bound up in red tape, tax and regulation. It's a no-brainer.
Just extrapolate the graphs and you'll find the year in which tax reaches 100%, the public sector is the sole emplyer and Europe legislates itself to a standstill.
Mon Ami Mate said:
Brown's silly postulations on the strength and future of the economy are beginning to rise up and bite him on the arse. He'll take the old Labour route out and raise taxes, and the taxes will go up and up as the economy gets weaker and weaker.
Blair will resign, Labour will hand over to Brown uncontested and a thoroughly pissed off middle England will show him the door.
Please, God, let it be true...
Here's hoping.
Gordon Brown said:
The EU's initial goal of securing peace had been achieved....
Er, that happened about 40 years ago IIRC. Tw@t.
Gordon Brown said:
....and it should now focus on creating prosperity. Mr Brown added: "The challenge is for Europe to move on from the older, inward-looking model to become a more flexible, reforming, open and globally-oriented Europe.''
That rhetorical BS is probably true for the USA but it's well out of date for Yerp. FFS, Yerp is the leading continent/union for 'globalness'. Assuming credit for for that which forefathers achieved whilst making an utter dog's dinner of his own stewardship of the UK economy is risible.
Out with the one-eyed trouser snake!
Editted to credit Gordon Brown with his own words
>> Edited by bosscerbera on Friday 14th October 10:30
I have a feeling Brown is going to get himself out of hole he's in by imposing a windfall tax on either the Banks or Oil companies.
The sad thing is that it'd make the government appear to be the knights in shining armour - punishing the nasty big companies for all their profiteering at the expense of the consumer
The sad thing is that it'd make the government appear to be the knights in shining armour - punishing the nasty big companies for all their profiteering at the expense of the consumer
markh508 said:
I have a feeling Brown is going to get himself out of hole he's in by imposing a windfall tax on either the Banks or Oil companies.
The sad thing is that it'd make the government appear to be the knights in shining armour - punishing the nasty big companies for all their profiteering at the expense of the consumer
More like it would make Brown look like Putin.
The Telegraph said:
Mr Brown has already indicated that he recognises that the economy will fail to hit his ambitious Budget forecast, saying he will "update" the prediction in his pre-Budget report expected at the end of next month.
Sounds suspiciously like the work of the lead character in 1984...
PatHeald said:
Given the timescale involved, it is hardly surprising that he won't rule out tax rises before 2008. He can't really be criticised for refusing to make any such commitment.
What I didn't like about the interview was his complete refusal to accept that the domestic economy had been propped up by property price rises and the consequential rise in spending shored up by credit.
The economy is in a far more precarious position than he lets on.
Too many goblins have remortgaged all of the equity out of their houses, "bought" big cars on balloon payment contracts and generally lived far beyond their means for thick end of a decade.
If Brown was a bit more honest about what was round the corner, then a lot of these muppets might have time to reign themselves in before it is too late.
It would only take a small rise in rates and a bit of a tumble in property prices to make tens of thousands of people default on all sorts of credit agreements.
I am waiting for the reposession auctions to start so that I can bag myself a few bargains.
Quite.
I and many others said just after the election that it was probably a good election to lose, given the true (though not obvious to some) state of the economy.
Let the cr@p hit the fan under Labour for one more term...
At some point a Government is going to have to take a tough decision about the expenses side of the economy and stop jacking up the revenues from a diminishing group of the population.
The public sector, paid for by the private sector, is massive. The welfare sector, paid for by the private sector and administered by the public sector wastrels is also ballooning.
I read somewhere that there's only about 30% (happy to be corrected) of the population in the GDP contributing, tax-paying private sector. The economy is fuelled by house prices and credit raised against houses rather than GDP revenues. Dangerous.
The class system has polarised to wealthy tax avoiders (upper class), the working class (the middle class) and the welfare clase (prev. working class, now unemployed class).
The unemployed class will keep voting Labour (why wouldn't they FFS?), the public sector has benefited from Labour, so they'll vote too. The people who pay for all this don't amount to a big enough group to brush off the leaches.
soon.
The public sector, paid for by the private sector, is massive. The welfare sector, paid for by the private sector and administered by the public sector wastrels is also ballooning.
I read somewhere that there's only about 30% (happy to be corrected) of the population in the GDP contributing, tax-paying private sector. The economy is fuelled by house prices and credit raised against houses rather than GDP revenues. Dangerous.
The class system has polarised to wealthy tax avoiders (upper class), the working class (the middle class) and the welfare clase (prev. working class, now unemployed class).
The unemployed class will keep voting Labour (why wouldn't they FFS?), the public sector has benefited from Labour, so they'll vote too. The people who pay for all this don't amount to a big enough group to brush off the leaches.
soon.bosscerbera said:
At some point a Government is going to have to take a tough decision about the expenses side of the economy and stop jacking up the revenues from a diminishing group of the population.
The public sector, paid for by the private sector, is massive. The welfare sector, paid for by the private sector and administered by the public sector wastrels is also ballooning.
I read somewhere that there's only about 30% (happy to be corrected) of the population in the GDP contributing, tax-paying private sector. The economy is fuelled by house prices and credit raised against houses rather than GDP revenues. Dangerous.
The class system has polarised to wealthy tax avoiders (upper class), the working class (the middle class) and the welfare clase (prev. working class, now unemployed class).
The unemployed class will keep voting Labour (why wouldn't they FFS?), the public sector has benefited from Labour, so they'll vote too. The people who pay for all this don't amount to a big enough group to brush off the leaches.
I think the figure for public sector employment is 5 million.
That does sound reasonable in the sense of accuracy, but I doubt it includes organisations that were public, and have been privatised but are still singly funded by the government.
Obvious examples are QinetiQ and to a degree DSTL. Formerly DERA. Although I'm sure there are many others.
I know for afact that the general feeling within these organisations is of considerable concern.
Overall, I'd not be surprised if once you have included all the appendages, through the health service and so on, if you're looking at 10 million.
That's not nearly a third as you report, but then I've done zero research, and I can come up with a third of your figure.
dilbert said:
That's not nearly a third as you report, but then I've done zero research, and I can come up with a third of your figure.
I think bosscerbera was meaning 30% of the total population, not the working population... so at a guess there's:
12m pensioners
12m children
4m on Jobseekers/Incapacity benefit
0.8m in prison
That's 50% of the total population accounted for.
markh508 said:
That's not nearly a third as you report, but then I've done zero research, and I can come up with a third of your figure.
I think bosscerbera was meaning 30% of the total population, not the working population... so at a guess there's:
12m pensioners
12m children
4m on Jobseekers/Incapacity benefit
0.8m in prison
That's 50% of the total population accounted for.
Oh my word.......
I see what you're saying.
Strewth.
markh508 said:
dilbert said:
That's not nearly a third as you report, but then I've done zero research, and I can come up with a third of your figure.
I think bosscerbera was meaning 30% of the total population, not the working population... so at a guess there's:
12m pensioners
12m children
4m on Jobseekers/Incapacity benefit
0.8m in prison
That's 50% of the total population accounted for.
If only there were 0.8 m in prison we might solve the crime problem
, divide that figure by 10. The basic principle is correct however those employed in the wealth generating part of the economy have to support the entire UK population, it may well be only 30% or slightly higher.
>> Edited by JagLover on Friday 14th October 15:25
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