Alarming Premier league attendance slump............
Discussion
The Grauniad said:
Had enough? You're not alone
Decline in Premiership attendances continues; Top flight is too defensive and much too predictable
Matt Scott
Tuesday September 20, 2005
The Guardian
Football is in trouble. Analysis of early-season attendances suggests that the decline in Premiership gates is set to continue. Nine of the 17 top-flight sides that were in the division last year have suffered falling numbers through the turnstiles, with only the European champions Liverpool and Everton, back in Europe for the first time in a decade, recording significant increases.
With an aggregate 10,675 fewer fans attending live matches for those 17 teams so far this season than at the same stage during the last campaign, statistics suggest that football's boom period has ended. "We shouldn't be alarmist but football needs to watch things very carefully," said Stuart Barnsdall of the accountants PKF, whose sports-business unit conducts an annual survey of football clubs' finance directors.
>> Edited by andy mac on Wednesday 21st September 00:17
Williams believes a combination of factors including saturation television coverage, tickets prices, negative tactics and predictable results are behind the fall in attendances.
All of the above. My team, Middlesbrough have 6 of the first 9 home matches live on Sky, so the attendances have plummeted.
All of the above. My team, Middlesbrough have 6 of the first 9 home matches live on Sky, so the attendances have plummeted.
Evertonians look at it differently. We can either go to the Liverpool Empire, and pay 25 pounds for a ticket to see Jack Dee, or Lee Evans for an hour and a half, or we can pay 25 pounds, and see 11 comedians for an hour and a half at Goodison. Its all about value for money! 
Edited for smelling pistakes.
>> Edited by andy mac on Wednesday 21st September 00:43
Edited for smelling pistakes.
>> Edited by andy mac on Wednesday 21st September 00:43
Time to let the Old Firm in to spice things up a bit.
Trouble is only the top 2 or 3 clubs would vote for it, the rest know that their Champions' League spots would be under threat.
Only Man U have a bigger support at every home game. Even though we play in the worst Premier League in Europe we (Celtic) play in front of 61000 every home game.
Then in the Premiership come Newcastle with 52000 then Rangers with 51000.
We can't attract the top players because of our league and hence our progress is stunted.
With Premiership money and our commercial/fan base we'd be right up there.
Thing is diddy Premiership teams like Bolton
will never vote because the Old Firm would just push them down the European pecking order.
Trouble is only the top 2 or 3 clubs would vote for it, the rest know that their Champions' League spots would be under threat.
Only Man U have a bigger support at every home game. Even though we play in the worst Premier League in Europe we (Celtic) play in front of 61000 every home game.
Then in the Premiership come Newcastle with 52000 then Rangers with 51000.
We can't attract the top players because of our league and hence our progress is stunted.
With Premiership money and our commercial/fan base we'd be right up there.
Thing is diddy Premiership teams like Bolton
will never vote because the Old Firm would just push them down the European pecking order.Why would the English clubs/The FA want to subsidise Scottish football? Exactly who would the Old Firm usurp to gain their position? Would a team be told 'sorry, you can't come up to the prem this year, as we've let in the unfortunates from up norf'?
Its a bad idea. What exactly would happen to the rest of the Scottish clubs? Would thjeir money drop as the attraction of the old firm has gone? What would that do to Scottish football?
Bad idea! Let the Scots sort out their own league.
The Old firm play in front of such large crowds because no-one wants to watch the other teams. remember the crowd levels for the rest of the SPL is pretty poor.
>> Edited by andy mac on Wednesday 21st September 00:53
Its a bad idea. What exactly would happen to the rest of the Scottish clubs? Would thjeir money drop as the attraction of the old firm has gone? What would that do to Scottish football?
Bad idea! Let the Scots sort out their own league.
The Old firm play in front of such large crowds because no-one wants to watch the other teams. remember the crowd levels for the rest of the SPL is pretty poor.
>> Edited by andy mac on Wednesday 21st September 00:53
There would be too many teams. Its fine having leagues in all the countries, but would you have the same amount of teams in a British league? team Y got relegated into Division 12! LOTS of teams would go under from lack of funds, that they would normally have in the previous incarnation of the league.
Also, with the British league, would come a british team. No problem there with me, but speak to most Scots, Welsh, and Ireland and they would want x amount of their nation in the team. It wouldn't work. Chances are most of the team would be English, with maybe 3 places taken up by the other home nations. That would not go down well.
>> Edited by andy mac on Wednesday 21st September 01:07
Also, with the British league, would come a british team. No problem there with me, but speak to most Scots, Welsh, and Ireland and they would want x amount of their nation in the team. It wouldn't work. Chances are most of the team would be English, with maybe 3 places taken up by the other home nations. That would not go down well.
>> Edited by andy mac on Wednesday 21st September 01:07
It's a great idea in terms of what Celtic would benefit from it but it's never going to happen unfortunately.
The money comes one Rupert Murdoch and not the English FA, the Old Firm would actually increase revenue for the English teams in terms of getting their attendances up. I mean let's say you're from the blue half of Liverpool and not having a good season who are you going to want to pay money to see Everton v Celtic or Everton v Wigan ?
Yes this is the tricky part, ideas mooted have to been to play a season in the Championship via some sort of play-off with the League one teams but again one of the reasonswhy it's not going to happen.
I follow Highland League football, not sure what the English League equiv. is ? below conference level I think.
The same arguments were suggested about what would happen to the rest of the clubs when two of the big HL teams gained admission to the SFL. Well the Highland League didn't lose out at all and became more competitive.
What money ? we get no money from Sky, just a little from ITV. Rangers and Celtic have their own TV channels.
Once the old firm were out the teams attendances would rise with the prospect of European football for the top 3 or 4.
The concept of the Old Firm playing in the Premiership and the benefits to all clubs is great (apart from the ones losing out on European spots
)but as mentioned the obstacles in getting there are too much to overcome.
Leagues looking up this year with Hearts just been bought by a mini Abramovich ! spent loads on players wages.
Not true, the Old Firm have always had huge support and it's very hard to get a season ticket, we could double Celtic Park and still fill it.
>> Edited by andy mac on Wednesday 21st September 00:53[/quote]
andy mac said:
Why would the English clubs/The FA want to subsidise Scottish football?
The money comes one Rupert Murdoch and not the English FA, the Old Firm would actually increase revenue for the English teams in terms of getting their attendances up. I mean let's say you're from the blue half of Liverpool and not having a good season who are you going to want to pay money to see Everton v Celtic or Everton v Wigan ?
andy mac said:
Exactly who would the Old Firm usurp to gain their position? Would a team be told 'sorry, you can't come up to the prem this year, as we've let in the unfortunates from up norf'?
Yes this is the tricky part, ideas mooted have to been to play a season in the Championship via some sort of play-off with the League one teams but again one of the reasonswhy it's not going to happen.
andy mac said:
Its a bad idea. What exactly would happen to the rest of the Scottish clubs?
I follow Highland League football, not sure what the English League equiv. is ? below conference level I think.
The same arguments were suggested about what would happen to the rest of the clubs when two of the big HL teams gained admission to the SFL. Well the Highland League didn't lose out at all and became more competitive.
andy mac said:
Would thjeir money drop as the attraction of the old firm has gone? What would that do to Scottish football?
What money ? we get no money from Sky, just a little from ITV. Rangers and Celtic have their own TV channels.
Once the old firm were out the teams attendances would rise with the prospect of European football for the top 3 or 4.
andy mac said:
Bad idea! Let the Scots sort out their own league.
The concept of the Old Firm playing in the Premiership and the benefits to all clubs is great (apart from the ones losing out on European spots
)but as mentioned the obstacles in getting there are too much to overcome. Leagues looking up this year with Hearts just been bought by a mini Abramovich ! spent loads on players wages.
andy mac said:
The Old firm play in front of such large crowds because no-one wants to watch the other teams. remember the crowd levels for the rest of the SPL is pretty poor.
Not true, the Old Firm have always had huge support and it's very hard to get a season ticket, we could double Celtic Park and still fill it.
>> Edited by andy mac on Wednesday 21st September 00:53[/quote]
Hilts said:[/quote]
It's a great idea in terms of what Celtic would benefit from it but it's never going to happen unfortunately.
andy mac said:
Why would the English clubs/The FA want to subsidise Scottish football?
The money comes one Rupert Murdoch and not the English FA, the Old Firm would actually increase revenue for the English teams in terms of getting their attendances up. I mean let's say you're from the blue half of Liverpool and not having a good season who are you going to want to pay money to see Everton v Celtic or Everton v Wigan ?
andy mac said:
Exactly who would the Old Firm usurp to gain their position? Would a team be told 'sorry, you can't come up to the prem this year, as we've let in the unfortunates from up norf'?
Yes this is the tricky part, ideas mooted have to been to play a season in the Championship via some sort of play-off with the League one teams but again one of the reasonswhy it's not going to happen.
andy mac said:
Its a bad idea. What exactly would happen to the rest of the Scottish clubs?
I follow Highland League football, not sure what the English League equiv. is ? below conference level I think.
The same arguments were suggested about what would happen to the rest of the clubs when two of the big HL teams gained admission to the SFL. Well the Highland League didn't lose out at all and became more competitive.
andy mac said:
Would thjeir money drop as the attraction of the old firm has gone? What would that do to Scottish football?
What money ? we get no money from Sky, just a little from ITV. Rangers and Celtic have their own TV channels.
Once the old firm were out the teams attendances would rise with the prospect of European football for the top 3 or 4.
andy mac said:
Bad idea! Let the Scots sort out their own league.
The concept of the Old Firm playing in the Premiership and the benefits to all clubs is great (apart from the ones losing out on European spots
Leagues looking up this year with Hearts just been bought by a mini Abramovich ! spent loads on players wages.
andy mac said:
The Old firm play in front of such large crowds because no-one wants to watch the other teams. remember the crowd levels for the rest of the SPL is pretty poor.
Not true, the Old Firm have always had huge support and it's very hard to get a season ticket, we could double Celtic Park and still fill it.
>> Edited by andy mac on Wednesday 21st September 00:53
Evertons attendences are up this year, and have been one of the highest since time began! 4th highest average in England I believe. We go whether it is Wigan or man utd. We also have the biggest walking support in the English league. You can always get a parking space in Everton, even with 38,000 fans at the ground.
There will be no way you can get in that would be fair to the other teams... Thats the main reason it ain't gonna happen.
By losing revenue, I meant by playing rangers and celtic. Most of the teams only get 10K a match, sometimes less, so the money they get from playing the old firm games goes a big way to the small teams. Most of the money in Scotland is wrapped up in the Old Firm teams, and perhaps hearts, and Motherwell, whicg seem to be pretty decent as well. There isn't much else going around.
Yup.. I know you have always had large support. But where is the support for the local teams like Stenhouse, hearts, Dundee, etc? Most people in Scotland follow one of the two old firm teams.
What benefits to the English Clubs? Lets be fair on the premiership teams. Although the bottom teams, (of which we are at the moment), the quality difference between the SPL and the EPL is staggering. i think the Old firm teams would find it a lot harder to cope playing better quality teams week in, week out, rather than steamrolling smaller teams, and most of the time having the league depend on mere old firm results. You say who would we prefer to play? Celtic, or Wigan? Well... Wigan have earneed their place in the prem, regardless of their expectations, and these smaller teams should not be thrust aside for a Scottish giant.
andymac said:
The quality difference between the SPL and the EPL is staggering. i think the Old firm teams would find it a lot harder to cope playing better quality teams week in, week out, rather than steamrolling smaller teams, and most of the time having the league depend on mere old firm results.
Just look 2 seasons back when Celtic got to the UEFA cup final, we beat Liverpool and Blackburn on the way.
There would be a period of adjustment but then we'd also have the premiership money to enlarge/better our squads. Better players and with the attendances/commercial side bringing in even more funds and it's a no-brainer. We'd be right up there.
The money we get now is a joke, the weakest teams in the Championship probably get more.
andymac said:
You say who would we prefer to play? Celtic, or Wigan? Well... Wigan have earneed their place in the prem, regardless of their expectations, and these smaller teams should not be thrust aside for a Scottish giant.
You could've been a politician Andy with that answer !
I think the problem really does come down to cost. £40 or £50 to see a game is simply ludicrous - add in travel, parking, food, beer, and it's nudging hundred quid for half a day out.
Football is supposed to be the national game, and accessible to millions - not at these prices it isn't. Given that the loyal fan-base traditionally comes from the lower income groups, I'm not suprised they are watching it on Sky instead of being utterly shafted at the ticketing booths.
The players wages are totally ridiculous.
This is a problem created by a shortsighted and greedy FA and Premier League Clubs who have chosen to forget / screw their fans.
Football is supposed to be the national game, and accessible to millions - not at these prices it isn't. Given that the loyal fan-base traditionally comes from the lower income groups, I'm not suprised they are watching it on Sky instead of being utterly shafted at the ticketing booths.
The players wages are totally ridiculous.
This is a problem created by a shortsighted and greedy FA and Premier League Clubs who have chosen to forget / screw their fans.
I find it odd that Mourinho says the football doesn't need to be entertaining. Football is a spectator sport and there wouldn't be as much money in it if it was as boring as tiddly winks. They are in the entertainment business. People pay money to watch them perform.
I used to go to a lot of Dundee United games but they now charge £20+ for a dull display of football. I'd much rather save that money and travel to see Newcastle a couple of times a season.
I would like to see the English league cup and the Scottish league cup combined. It would be good to see Arsenal getting a drubbing at Tannadice!
I used to go to a lot of Dundee United games but they now charge £20+ for a dull display of football. I'd much rather save that money and travel to see Newcastle a couple of times a season.
I would like to see the English league cup and the Scottish league cup combined. It would be good to see Arsenal getting a drubbing at Tannadice!
8 said:
I find it odd that Mourinho says the football doesn't need to be entertaining.
He puts his profession in the same league (sorry) as medicine, engineering, science etc etc. Its a game... its there to amuse people. If it fails to amuse then people will stop going. I used to attend almost all my teams home games until a couple of seasons ago. It reached the point where you could easily spend £60-£70 to watch your team scrape a no-score draw. I can find better ways of spending my money.
Hilts said:
Thing is diddy Premiership teams like Bolton
anonymous said:
[redacted]
....(Small bite)
Maybe if you lose Sam Allardyce and the new man ain't much cop.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Why not a 22 Team League ? With the Old Firm, more cash could be twisted from Sky.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I don't know if you followed it but Sky offered the SPL £ 10 million a few years back but a majority of the clubs turned it down in favour of setting up their own deal which never materialised - hence Sky money lost. That's my hazy recollection anyway. We now have Setanta which I don't think comes close to the Sky deal.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Aye that's true, but my English team have always been Ipswich since I was about 10. Now I usually support any Premiership team with a Scottish manager esp. David Moyes.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Well without Sky money circa 56000 season ticket holders and associated merchandise sales every season counts for a lot.
Bottom line is IMO the Premiership would be definitely be more interesting and exciting to watch with the Old Firm, look at the interest in the Celtic's UEFA cup games.
But it's never going to happen, best we can hope for is to merge the CIS and Carling cups for an Auld Enemy cup.
Hilts said:
Aye that's true, but my English team have always been Ipswich since I was about 10. Now I usually support any Premiership team with a Scottish manager esp. David Moyes.
Gwladys street said:
He's Moyes, He's Moyes,
He's Davie, Davie Moyes,
He's got red hair, but we don't care,
Davie, Davie Moyes!
>> Edited by andy mac on Wednesday 21st September 08:59
>> Edited by andy mac on Wednesday 21st September 11:34
Entertainment. 
Maybe the solution is all in the money. Take the premiership for example. If every team had an equal share of prize money and TV money we could see a difference.
I mean the winners of the league and/or F.A Cup should have the same money as the teams that end up near the bottom.
This would result in teams playing purely for passion and pride but still being able to strive for the winning of cups which after all is what football was originally all about.
It would (up to a point) also ensure that the transfer market would be a more fair place for all clubs to visit with the theory that they all earned the same type of income.
A possible solution ?
Maybe the solution is all in the money. Take the premiership for example. If every team had an equal share of prize money and TV money we could see a difference.
I mean the winners of the league and/or F.A Cup should have the same money as the teams that end up near the bottom.
This would result in teams playing purely for passion and pride but still being able to strive for the winning of cups which after all is what football was originally all about.
It would (up to a point) also ensure that the transfer market would be a more fair place for all clubs to visit with the theory that they all earned the same type of income.
A possible solution ?
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