I May Be Slightly Victorian But...
Discussion
What the bloody hell is wrong with people, 'the system' and society at large when the following scenario can be allowed to unfurl?
Here be the situation: we take on a chap about 18 months ago (white collar position) but within several months it transpires he's suffering from a pretty serious medical condition and consequently, he begins taking significant chunks of time off for treatment.
Everyone's tres sympathetique due to the nature of the ailment and after six months' irregular attendance it seems he's back with a tad more consistency.
Unfortunately, he suffers a relapse and basically has spent the last twelve months' off, apparently being very 'off' and 'on' colour.
Throughout this time, however, this pleasant enough chap finds plenty time to pop in to 'say hello' on many, many occasions. Indeed, between bouts of an admittedly unpleasant treatment, other memebers of staff see the chap on a social basis. But basically, he isn't ever fit to make it to the office.
Recently, however - after 18 months' almost non-attendance - we decided it was time to have a chat and see where we were going and what was workable for him and the company.
As this chap marched in, all smiles and friendly nods, his accompanying rottweiler brief proceeded to outline our liability which was likely to arise from a termination of his employment, should we decide to act accordingly.
We explained that we had kept his job open for a year and a half and that whilst we were obviously upset and sympathetic to his reported medical condition we had reached the point where his perpetual abscence was seriously hampering a department and we had a responsibility to the other memebers of staff and the best interests of the company generally...we would be more than happy to re-employ once treatment rendered him available although we couldn't guarantee a similar job, not being ICI or the local council, like.
Well it really made no odds: contacting our own advisors it seems the best course of action (and least costly) will be to leave the position open indefinitely, create a supplementary role in the meantime and then if this guy [i]is[/i] surplus to requirement when/if he does come back, he'd probably face redundancy anyway...so what has been achieved, in reality?
We had attempted a genuine, meaningful solution to this chap's and our mutual dilemmas, in a logical, sensitive manner: yet it seems the edifice of the 'rights culture' all too belligerently disposed to steamroller once again the better interests of two, completely independent parties.
It was pointed out that the legislation pertaining to all of this was devised to safeguard those with all manner of afflictions and disability but it seems to me, all such loathesome, meddlesome, arse-brained interference will ensure is that companies avoid employment in the UK generally, at an increasing rate or simply cease operting herein at all.
I wish someone had told me 17 years ago that in being foolish enough to entertain the notion of private enterprise, I was also entering into a contract with the state whereby any endeavour involving the simple transaction of payment for labours offered up would also render the whole operation liable, ito being a forced subsiduary to the social security system.
Good thinking, you commie dogs.
Here be the situation: we take on a chap about 18 months ago (white collar position) but within several months it transpires he's suffering from a pretty serious medical condition and consequently, he begins taking significant chunks of time off for treatment.
Everyone's tres sympathetique due to the nature of the ailment and after six months' irregular attendance it seems he's back with a tad more consistency.
Unfortunately, he suffers a relapse and basically has spent the last twelve months' off, apparently being very 'off' and 'on' colour.
Throughout this time, however, this pleasant enough chap finds plenty time to pop in to 'say hello' on many, many occasions. Indeed, between bouts of an admittedly unpleasant treatment, other memebers of staff see the chap on a social basis. But basically, he isn't ever fit to make it to the office.
Recently, however - after 18 months' almost non-attendance - we decided it was time to have a chat and see where we were going and what was workable for him and the company.
As this chap marched in, all smiles and friendly nods, his accompanying rottweiler brief proceeded to outline our liability which was likely to arise from a termination of his employment, should we decide to act accordingly.
We explained that we had kept his job open for a year and a half and that whilst we were obviously upset and sympathetic to his reported medical condition we had reached the point where his perpetual abscence was seriously hampering a department and we had a responsibility to the other memebers of staff and the best interests of the company generally...we would be more than happy to re-employ once treatment rendered him available although we couldn't guarantee a similar job, not being ICI or the local council, like.
Well it really made no odds: contacting our own advisors it seems the best course of action (and least costly) will be to leave the position open indefinitely, create a supplementary role in the meantime and then if this guy [i]is[/i] surplus to requirement when/if he does come back, he'd probably face redundancy anyway...so what has been achieved, in reality?
We had attempted a genuine, meaningful solution to this chap's and our mutual dilemmas, in a logical, sensitive manner: yet it seems the edifice of the 'rights culture' all too belligerently disposed to steamroller once again the better interests of two, completely independent parties.
It was pointed out that the legislation pertaining to all of this was devised to safeguard those with all manner of afflictions and disability but it seems to me, all such loathesome, meddlesome, arse-brained interference will ensure is that companies avoid employment in the UK generally, at an increasing rate or simply cease operting herein at all.
I wish someone had told me 17 years ago that in being foolish enough to entertain the notion of private enterprise, I was also entering into a contract with the state whereby any endeavour involving the simple transaction of payment for labours offered up would also render the whole operation liable, ito being a forced subsiduary to the social security system.
Good thinking, you commie dogs.
If employers had behaved properly in the past, there would never have been any need for such legislation in the first place.
The problem lies with humans. There is a natural tendancy for people to exploit each other. Over the past 150 or so years, successive governments have tried to stop this. Most of the time the legislation serves its purpose properly but every now and then someone will try to take advantage of the situation.
I've always liked the definition of the difference between Capitalism and Communism. Capitalism involves the exploitation of man by man. Communism is the exact opposite.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 8th September 08:42
The problem lies with humans. There is a natural tendancy for people to exploit each other. Over the past 150 or so years, successive governments have tried to stop this. Most of the time the legislation serves its purpose properly but every now and then someone will try to take advantage of the situation.
I've always liked the definition of the difference between Capitalism and Communism. Capitalism involves the exploitation of man by man. Communism is the exact opposite.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 8th September 08:42
Perhaps he had enough energy to go out but not enough to work 9-5 (perhaps more?) every day. One is considerably more tiring than the other. The fact that he popped in to say "hello" obviosuly means he cares about his position at your company and wants to continue. If you are faced with an illness though, do you put your life or your job first?
derestrictor said:
Christ on a crumbly cross, he's off again...
Would you have it any other way?
Nah, suppose not
I do sympathise, mate: we have a couple of what could best be described as 'idle, whingeing, malingering bastards' too. One guy was in a car crash (bumper scraped, that kind of thing) and was promptly off work for 2 weeks with whiplash.
We reorganise the entire company workload around him coming back; he appears and hands in a sick note for ANOTHER two weeks off
Partly as a result, I've just spent three days and almost 1000 miles thrashing round Britannia trying to get us back on track.
The NHS job that me Julie vacated in Leicester to come and live with me was eventually filled six months later. The woman who took it did two weeks, had a fortnight on holiday and has been on the sick with 'stress'
since July. What a country.
DeR, as someone who went through "unpleasant treatment" for over two years it makes me sick to see that someone is basically using an illness as an excuse. Throughtout that time, I always did my hours and when I did need time off, I took it as holiday. Thankfully the company were good enough to let me take holiday on an almost ad-hoc basis.
One of the guys that works for me has ME. The poor sod is almost permanently knackered... but he still turns up to do his job (I do wonder if it's to the detriment of his own health at times) and he does it well. He puts his job ahead of team socials; although we always do the best to accomodate him.
In short, I think it's down to the individual how they act. To me, this guy seems to be a "sympathy case"... me..? I'll just settle for "martyr".
One of the guys that works for me has ME. The poor sod is almost permanently knackered... but he still turns up to do his job (I do wonder if it's to the detriment of his own health at times) and he does it well. He puts his job ahead of team socials; although we always do the best to accomodate him.
In short, I think it's down to the individual how they act. To me, this guy seems to be a "sympathy case"... me..? I'll just settle for "martyr".
For most of last year I worked in a county council personnel dept. One of my tasks included maintaining the 'sick books'. Malingering within the public sector really is shocking, and the system is set up to aid these gimps. The most infuriating cases involved stress. Left me stressed, I can tell you! 
SPEAK ENGLISH, BOY!derestrictor said:
Guys, I have no issue with the poor bloke in question, far from it: my beef is with 'the system' which may have arisen from the righteous cause of protecting Brunellian tunnel folk but this is hardly comparable...
ah, ok, sorry
It's early and I'm not quite up to speed 
Der..... are there any other vacancies with your company? I'm desperate for a "career break" but I'll be damned if I can find a way of funding it! It appears from your post that you have been entirely reasonable towards the afflicted mass that you employ. The only way for the system to alter and swing back towards the outer reaches of common sense is for the employers to start using the letter of the law to make employees lives as difficult as possible. Something that non of us want (except the legal profession... kerching).
I give it another 5 years before you'll need to have a solicitor present while taking a dump in order to
comply with your waste management end user agreement.......
We had similar shinaagons a few years back, see 'Staff pain in the arse'
Long and short of it, just sack the bugger. Give the correct notice, and pay the minimum required. You will feel better and it will save time, money and stress for you and your firm in the long run.
I take NO SHIT from my employees now and am a hard nasty bastard for sticking to the rules as I have been bent over backwards and shafted too many time for be nice and considerate. (im pleasant to work for but they stick to the rules for sickness and holidays.)
Long and short of it, just sack the bugger. Give the correct notice, and pay the minimum required. You will feel better and it will save time, money and stress for you and your firm in the long run.
I take NO SHIT from my employees now and am a hard nasty bastard for sticking to the rules as I have been bent over backwards and shafted too many time for be nice and considerate. (im pleasant to work for but they stick to the rules for sickness and holidays.)
As I understand it you dont have to pay them anything after the statutory period (is it 3 months?) so unless there are other costs (NI, etc) then perhaps the cheapest way is to leave him to it and take someone on to fill his role (with a view to dealing with the situation in a different way in the future)
Thank god you don't operate a business in Merthyr Tydfil - officially the UK's (joint) number one for spongers - 20.5% of working age inhabitants claim incapacity benefit.
The town also has the highest UK incidence of tooth decay in under 5's, with the average 4-year-old having over 3 fillings.
The town also has the highest UK incidence of tooth decay in under 5's, with the average 4-year-old having over 3 fillings.
My wife tells me that many years ago when she moved from the private sector to the public sector she upset a lot of people initially, mainly because she cleared her entire week's workload by the end of Monday each week and was eventually taken to one side and told to "pace herself" as it was showing everyone else up.
(She no longer works in the public sector, I should add - she runs her own business now)
(She no longer works in the public sector, I should add - she runs her own business now)
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