Discussion
I posted recently about a purchase from Tiny. Was being mucked around by Tiny, got great advice from PH and cancelled the order. Tiny took the money from my credit card, I put this in dispute and, of course, Tiny have gone bust. My visa company is now chasing me for the money despite the fact I have never received any goods from Tiny, I doubt we'll get the money back but I don't know where I stand legally, I thought the visa company would be liable but because I cancelled the order they say I am liable. Help, advice anyone?
simpo two said:
A major advantage of using a credit card is that for purchases over £100 they are jointly liable for the debt. I certainly wouldn't pay the bill without a damn good fight/court case.
Try posting this on the business forum for more info. I suspect the company is just trying it on.
That was what I thought but they are insisting, thanks and I am going to fight this.
If you cancelled the order and Tiny subsequently charged your credit card, you did not authorise the payment....
So the card company paid Tiny without your consent.
Hit them with that...
But....
If Tiny charged your card before you cancelled the order....
You have a valid claim against Tiny and the credit card company. Tiny's gone, so the card company must cough up...
So the card company paid Tiny without your consent.
Hit them with that...
But....
If Tiny charged your card before you cancelled the order....
You have a valid claim against Tiny and the credit card company. Tiny's gone, so the card company must cough up...
As Simpo says, provided the transaction was for more than £100, was all or in part on a credit card (not debit), and all parties to the order (buyer, vendor, card company) were in the UK, then the credit card company is at least partly liable (and normally totally liable for that part of the transaction made by credit card).
I can see two scenarios. First, some credit companies do try it on. I would recommend that you reply with a clear timeline of:
- When the order was placed
- When it appeared on your card statement
- When you cancelled the order
- When you advised the company that the charge should be placed in dispute
- When Tiny collapsed
- Any other key dates & communications.
Back it up with copies of everything.
If you advised the card company that you had cancelled the order before Tiny collapsed, I can only see that it would have been their responsibility to recover the money. Therefore they should be liable.
If Tiny collapsed first, then they are again totally liable.
Now there are some grey areas on the relevant credit act, and as a result there is also guidance from the relevant ombudsman. In the vast majority of cases, even if the company are within the letter of the law, they will not win an appeal. So write back with a clear explanation of why you believe they are liable, and request a prompt, clear, and justified decision.
You next step should be to contact the CAB (see www.citizensadvice.org.uk for information on them, and where to find them, and www.adviceguide.org.uk for some basic information and factsheets about credit). One route will be to write to the Sunday Times Personal Fianance section who delight in dealing with just this scenario of credit companies playing silly beggars, and do it regularly.
Now the other scenario is that there isn't actually a problem, and the system is just moving too slowly for you. This might be:
- You placed the order
- You received a statement including the item.
- You cancelled the order, and advised the company that the item was in dispute (but importantly, not resolved).
- You (probably on thier advice) paid the outstanding balance, less the disputed amount.
- You have received another bill still showing the original amount as in arrears, plus interest. You assumed that it was dealt with, and got angry.
In this situation (which is what normally happens, and has happened to me), the Company have accepted that there is a problem, but have still not decided an action. Eventually (and presuming they agree to pay) they will credit you with both the original value plus the interest.
If this sounds like your situation, I would suggest calling the company's normal helpline, and asking about status on the queried item. Then follow up with a letter confirming the agreement they give, or requesting that, as Tiny have gone into liquidation (?), the company accept liability, and remove you from the equation by clearing up your status and crediting the amount plus the interest.
Hopefully it's the latter. If the former, do be aware that my advice is still barrackroom lawyer standard (though I am sure it's correct). What I would suggest is, if you can, you:
- You stop using that card for the time being.
- You pay off any undisputed charges (including interest on them). Is the interest situation is complicated (some disputed, some not), make an estimate, mail in the cheque, and include an explanation of the amount you have paid.
- If you have to use that card, pay it off on time (for any undisputed items)
That way, you are reducing your reliance on them should things get nasty, and the interest situation on the disputed items remains as clear as it can.
I can see two scenarios. First, some credit companies do try it on. I would recommend that you reply with a clear timeline of:
- When the order was placed
- When it appeared on your card statement
- When you cancelled the order
- When you advised the company that the charge should be placed in dispute
- When Tiny collapsed
- Any other key dates & communications.
Back it up with copies of everything.
If you advised the card company that you had cancelled the order before Tiny collapsed, I can only see that it would have been their responsibility to recover the money. Therefore they should be liable.
If Tiny collapsed first, then they are again totally liable.
Now there are some grey areas on the relevant credit act, and as a result there is also guidance from the relevant ombudsman. In the vast majority of cases, even if the company are within the letter of the law, they will not win an appeal. So write back with a clear explanation of why you believe they are liable, and request a prompt, clear, and justified decision.
You next step should be to contact the CAB (see www.citizensadvice.org.uk for information on them, and where to find them, and www.adviceguide.org.uk for some basic information and factsheets about credit). One route will be to write to the Sunday Times Personal Fianance section who delight in dealing with just this scenario of credit companies playing silly beggars, and do it regularly.
Now the other scenario is that there isn't actually a problem, and the system is just moving too slowly for you. This might be:
- You placed the order
- You received a statement including the item.
- You cancelled the order, and advised the company that the item was in dispute (but importantly, not resolved).
- You (probably on thier advice) paid the outstanding balance, less the disputed amount.
- You have received another bill still showing the original amount as in arrears, plus interest. You assumed that it was dealt with, and got angry.
In this situation (which is what normally happens, and has happened to me), the Company have accepted that there is a problem, but have still not decided an action. Eventually (and presuming they agree to pay) they will credit you with both the original value plus the interest.
If this sounds like your situation, I would suggest calling the company's normal helpline, and asking about status on the queried item. Then follow up with a letter confirming the agreement they give, or requesting that, as Tiny have gone into liquidation (?), the company accept liability, and remove you from the equation by clearing up your status and crediting the amount plus the interest.
Hopefully it's the latter. If the former, do be aware that my advice is still barrackroom lawyer standard (though I am sure it's correct). What I would suggest is, if you can, you:
- You stop using that card for the time being.
- You pay off any undisputed charges (including interest on them). Is the interest situation is complicated (some disputed, some not), make an estimate, mail in the cheque, and include an explanation of the amount you have paid.
- If you have to use that card, pay it off on time (for any undisputed items)
That way, you are reducing your reliance on them should things get nasty, and the interest situation on the disputed items remains as clear as it can.
Hirich said:
said lots of good stuff
unfortunately its the former, the amount is over £100. I have written explaining but they have been quite adamant on the phone, I did suspect it was scare tactics. I will stop using that card and I always pay off the balance every month. Thanks for the advice Hirich.
Thanks for the PM.
It seems very odd. There is a process for appeals, so do a web search (try www.bbc.co.uk and look for personal finance where you will find a lot of links), speak with the CAB, and be prepared for a fight. I keep trying to think of ways they might duck liability, maybe you haven't given us a key bit of information. But I just can't see it.
Most importantly, make sure that your credit card company provide you, in writing, a clear explanation and justification of why they believe you are liable. Demand that it must be in writing - not only does it make it clear that you are serious, but it will also be crucial evidence in a later case (and if they are telling porkies, you will have them over a barrel).
It seems very odd. There is a process for appeals, so do a web search (try www.bbc.co.uk and look for personal finance where you will find a lot of links), speak with the CAB, and be prepared for a fight. I keep trying to think of ways they might duck liability, maybe you haven't given us a key bit of information. But I just can't see it.
Most importantly, make sure that your credit card company provide you, in writing, a clear explanation and justification of why they believe you are liable. Demand that it must be in writing - not only does it make it clear that you are serious, but it will also be crucial evidence in a later case (and if they are telling porkies, you will have them over a barrel).
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