Ultimate machine- fighter plane
Discussion
I saw it but I don't now much abuot planes.
I was a bit miffed that they kept criticising the spitfire for only haveing a 500 mile range. Surely it was designed for the battle of britain to defend these shores so didn't need a huge range ?. Can't criticise something for being designed well to do it's job.
I was a bit miffed that they kept criticising the spitfire for only haveing a 500 mile range. Surely it was designed for the battle of britain to defend these shores so didn't need a huge range ?. Can't criticise something for being designed well to do it's job.
ledger said:
I saw it but I don't now much abuot planes.
I was a bit miffed that they kept criticising the spitfire for only haveing a 500 mile range. Surely it was designed for the battle of britain to defend these shores so didn't need a huge range ?. Can't criticise something for being designed well to do it's job.
T'was actually designed to win the Schneider (sp?) trophy
And how it can come second to the P51 is anybodies guess
Bit like the tank program the week before, not impressed that the challenger didn't even make it into the top 10 but some crappy swedish tank did and the thing never had a turret and could only be used in sweden was a result, tho there were a few american tanks mentioned.... what a surprise that was!!
ledger said:
T'was actually designed to win the Schneider (sp?) trophy
what is that then ?.
A quick google
www.gunwharf.net/schneider.htm
Loved reading about this in school.
fidgits said:
Spitfire 2nd - but oh, guess what, the P51 came 1st.
They were fairly equal in fighting capability but the P51 could do more. It's far greater range enabled the USAAF to carry the daylight bombing into Germany. The Spitfire has the legend but the P51 had the greater srategic effect.
fidgits said:
Not only that, the Harrier and Spitfire both had american pilots talking about them - jee, we designed, built and flew both planes, you'd think you'd be able to dig up a british pilot...
Well, an American raving about the Spitfire is better than a Englishman raving about it, no?
wizzpig said:
T'was actually designed to win the Schneider (sp?) trophy
Nope, it was a design evolution but I'd be very surprised if there were any common parts between them.
it was ok but obviously catered for people with only a minor knowledge of aircraft
The F-117 is NOT a fighter and is more of a gimmick than useful aircraft, it should not have been anywhere near this list.
Mitsu Zero - Sure it could turn really tight and had a decent range but it was made of rice paper and burnt just as easily plus it was way too slow for modern combat. The much maligned (unfairly) P-40 would eat it alive as long as the pilot didnt try and turn with the Zero, They would dive on it and blow it to pieces and the Zero couldnt keep up. The Flying Tigers figured this out early and subsequently built up impressive kill ratios.
The F/A-18 shouldnt be on their either, The F-16 has a better combat record and is frankly better at pure air combat (and I'm more of an F/A-18 fan). The F/A-18 got wasted in Iraq GW1 by a MiG25 that used its vastly superior speed to zip in get off a few missiles and get out before it could be hit. The F/A-18E is NOT the best fighter at the moment in fact there is a huge number of better fighters out there, the F-22 for a start, Su 27 (and various related models), F-16, upgraded MiG29s, F-15, Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen etc.
Mustang was a predictable number 1, I said it would be number 1 before the show even started and said the Spitfire would be 2 or 3 and was right on both counts. I'm not a huge Mustang fan but the 1 and 2 were fairly good decisions. F-86 sabre was a bit dodgy though, it wasn't actually better than a MiG15 and in fact was inferior but the US Pilots were far better trained which is what made the difference, still I guess it is a somewhat Iconic aircraft, I might have substituted the Mig15 but I wouldn't argue too hard against the F-86.
I thought a Mirage III should really have been included, and maybe a MiG25 and possibly an F-4 Phantom. FW190, Sopwith Camel
my list
1-P51
as good as a Spit but with decent range
2-Spitfire
doesnt need explaining
3-F-16
Exemplary comabt record, looks great, is the still one of the best multirole aircraft you can get and for a good price, good TW ratio, good speed, used all over the world.
4-Mirage III
Probably the most well known Delta design, proved its excellence in Israels many wars and has been constantly updated and adopted around the world, still lives on in spirit in the Mirage 2000 today.
5-Harrier
The falklands showed it wasn't just and expensive toy or gimmick aircraft.
6-MiG15
Suprised the west with how advanced the Soviets actually were and was subsequently shipped around the world.
7-MiG25
Scared the crap out of the west when it appeared and reached mythical staus until Beleko defected to Japan. Useless in a turning fight it is still the fastest fighter out there and its radar is strong enough to kill rabbits from some distance if activated on the ground. Was developed into the much improved MiG21 interceptor which still lives on today.
8-FW190
The best german piston engined figher of the war and outclassed anything the allies had when it appeared. Much easier to fly than the Me109 and with devastating armament.
9-F-15 The finest air superiority fighter available in its time, only recently outclassed by the F22.
10-Sopwith Camel
Probably the other most recognised aircraft of WW1 and the best British fighter of that war, also very lethal to pilots with its unstable flight characteristics but this also helped it to turn very quickly.
The F-117 is NOT a fighter and is more of a gimmick than useful aircraft, it should not have been anywhere near this list.
Mitsu Zero - Sure it could turn really tight and had a decent range but it was made of rice paper and burnt just as easily plus it was way too slow for modern combat. The much maligned (unfairly) P-40 would eat it alive as long as the pilot didnt try and turn with the Zero, They would dive on it and blow it to pieces and the Zero couldnt keep up. The Flying Tigers figured this out early and subsequently built up impressive kill ratios.
The F/A-18 shouldnt be on their either, The F-16 has a better combat record and is frankly better at pure air combat (and I'm more of an F/A-18 fan). The F/A-18 got wasted in Iraq GW1 by a MiG25 that used its vastly superior speed to zip in get off a few missiles and get out before it could be hit. The F/A-18E is NOT the best fighter at the moment in fact there is a huge number of better fighters out there, the F-22 for a start, Su 27 (and various related models), F-16, upgraded MiG29s, F-15, Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen etc.
Mustang was a predictable number 1, I said it would be number 1 before the show even started and said the Spitfire would be 2 or 3 and was right on both counts. I'm not a huge Mustang fan but the 1 and 2 were fairly good decisions. F-86 sabre was a bit dodgy though, it wasn't actually better than a MiG15 and in fact was inferior but the US Pilots were far better trained which is what made the difference, still I guess it is a somewhat Iconic aircraft, I might have substituted the Mig15 but I wouldn't argue too hard against the F-86.
I thought a Mirage III should really have been included, and maybe a MiG25 and possibly an F-4 Phantom. FW190, Sopwith Camel
my list
1-P51
as good as a Spit but with decent range
2-Spitfire
doesnt need explaining
3-F-16
Exemplary comabt record, looks great, is the still one of the best multirole aircraft you can get and for a good price, good TW ratio, good speed, used all over the world.
4-Mirage III
Probably the most well known Delta design, proved its excellence in Israels many wars and has been constantly updated and adopted around the world, still lives on in spirit in the Mirage 2000 today.
5-Harrier
The falklands showed it wasn't just and expensive toy or gimmick aircraft.
6-MiG15
Suprised the west with how advanced the Soviets actually were and was subsequently shipped around the world.
7-MiG25
Scared the crap out of the west when it appeared and reached mythical staus until Beleko defected to Japan. Useless in a turning fight it is still the fastest fighter out there and its radar is strong enough to kill rabbits from some distance if activated on the ground. Was developed into the much improved MiG21 interceptor which still lives on today.
8-FW190
The best german piston engined figher of the war and outclassed anything the allies had when it appeared. Much easier to fly than the Me109 and with devastating armament.
9-F-15 The finest air superiority fighter available in its time, only recently outclassed by the F22.
10-Sopwith Camel
Probably the other most recognised aircraft of WW1 and the best British fighter of that war, also very lethal to pilots with its unstable flight characteristics but this also helped it to turn very quickly.
ledger said:
wizzpig said:
T'was actually designed to win the Schneider (sp?) trophy
what is that then ?.
It was a competition set up in 1912 to encourage development of seaplane technology. In order to win, and retain the trophy, a flying club had to win the race three times within 5 years.
The UK won for the third time in 1931 with the Supermarine S6B, and became the permanent holders of the trophy.
The S6B provided RJ Mitchell with the experience to design the Spitfire.
>> Edited by Tank Slapper on Tuesday 12th July 11:19
fidgits said:
it was crap.
it was so american.
Spitfire 2nd - but oh, guess what, the P51 came 1st..
Not only that, the Harrier and Spitfire both had american pilots talking about them - jee, we designed, built and flew both planes, you'd think you'd be able to dig up a british pilot...
Actually he was Canadian, but I guess them North Americans are all the same then
(keep that quiet I have to work with 3 Canadians)
Souunds like a silly programme. The Spitfire was not evolved from the Schneider planes at all, just designed by the same chap who incorporated experience with the Schnieders into the Spitfire design.
However.... The Rolls Royce "R" engine from the Schnieder planes was eveolved into the Griffon engine which powered late-mark Spits.
The Mustang story is amazing - it should have won. It was designed to fulfil a British spec, designed and prototyped in something stupid like 60 days, and was only any good at altitude once fitted with the Merlin engine.
However.... The Rolls Royce "R" engine from the Schnieder planes was eveolved into the Griffon engine which powered late-mark Spits.
The Mustang story is amazing - it should have won. It was designed to fulfil a British spec, designed and prototyped in something stupid like 60 days, and was only any good at altitude once fitted with the Merlin engine.
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