Portillo/Trafalgar
Discussion
Yes, they don't make them like that any more.
From www.sanjuannepomuceno.co.uk/battle_map.htm :
'Two navies, two schools of thought were about to engage, led by two men who were opposites in every respect. Nelson was 47, and the most illustrious member of the Royal Navy. This was due less to his courage under fire - many captains in the British fleet were his equals on that score - than to the breadth and acuteness of his perception, the soundness and speed of his decisions, his talent for organisation, his gift for training men, his insatiable ambition, his supreme contempt for any adversary who was accorded the honour of engaging him - and lastly, his unlimited love of fighting and of life itself.
'Villeneuve was 42. He was one French seaman among many others, deeply patriotic, a good serviceman, a good fighter, honourable and straight. But he lacked imagination and daring, enthusiasm and willpower. He was incapable of understanding his men, nor did they understand him. He was outpaced and overwhelmed by the stormy genius of his all-powerful master (Napoleon). He was a weakling, a fatalist, diffident and sceptical, who was energetic only in his despair, and resolute only in his resignation'.
The next major naval engagement was Jutland in 1916, which we lost on points to the new German Navy due to poor communications, poor gunnery and poor ship design.
>> Edited by simpo two on Wednesday 22 June 22:32
From www.sanjuannepomuceno.co.uk/battle_map.htm :
'Two navies, two schools of thought were about to engage, led by two men who were opposites in every respect. Nelson was 47, and the most illustrious member of the Royal Navy. This was due less to his courage under fire - many captains in the British fleet were his equals on that score - than to the breadth and acuteness of his perception, the soundness and speed of his decisions, his talent for organisation, his gift for training men, his insatiable ambition, his supreme contempt for any adversary who was accorded the honour of engaging him - and lastly, his unlimited love of fighting and of life itself.
'Villeneuve was 42. He was one French seaman among many others, deeply patriotic, a good serviceman, a good fighter, honourable and straight. But he lacked imagination and daring, enthusiasm and willpower. He was incapable of understanding his men, nor did they understand him. He was outpaced and overwhelmed by the stormy genius of his all-powerful master (Napoleon). He was a weakling, a fatalist, diffident and sceptical, who was energetic only in his despair, and resolute only in his resignation'.
The next major naval engagement was Jutland in 1916, which we lost on points to the new German Navy due to poor communications, poor gunnery and poor ship design.
>> Edited by simpo two on Wednesday 22 June 22:32
simpo two said:
The next major naval engagement was Jutland in 1916, which we lost on points to the new German Navy due to poor communications, poor gunnery and poor ship design.
Actually more to do with poor ammunition storage, some ships had many more shells on board that they were designed to have. Flash protection doors were also left open during engagement to speed up the firing rate (something in common with Nelson's time). The belief was still to throw as much metal at the enemy as possible to win, worked in Nelson's time, didn't in 1916. Accuracy was needed and Beatty's Battlecruiser squadron hadn't been able to practice it's gunnery whilst stationed in Rosyth due to local complaints about the noise.
I'm glad they emphasised that, by destroying the combined fleets at Trafalgar, Nelson quashed any chance of Napoleon's dream of UK occupation (Waterloo was 10 years away).
Not dissimilar to what the RAF achieved 140 years later against Hitler IMO.
Equally happy that they didn't portray Nelson, as some depictions do, with an eye patch- that was apocryphal. He wasn't ashamed of his wounds.
I agree that Michael Portillo is ideal to present a prog. like this, I wish there were more of them as they buck the trend of the "we should all be ashamed of our past" left wing culture that currently prevades.
Incidently BG, that's a dead ringer for my car, parked next to the blue tent!
Not dissimilar to what the RAF achieved 140 years later against Hitler IMO.
Equally happy that they didn't portray Nelson, as some depictions do, with an eye patch- that was apocryphal. He wasn't ashamed of his wounds.
I agree that Michael Portillo is ideal to present a prog. like this, I wish there were more of them as they buck the trend of the "we should all be ashamed of our past" left wing culture that currently prevades.
Incidently BG, that's a dead ringer for my car, parked next to the blue tent!
FourWheelDrift said:
Actually more to do with poor ammunition storage, some ships had many more shells on board that they were designed to have. Flash protection doors were also left open during engagement to speed up the firing rate
Yes, the Germans nearly lost a ship in the Falklands Battle that way and quickly corrected their mistake. We didn't - at least two ships including the Queen Mary blew up that way prompting Beatty's famous words 'There's something wrong with our bloody ships today'.
FourWheelDrift said:
Accuracy was needed and Beatty's Battlecruiser squadron hadn't been able to practice it's gunnery whilst stationed in Rosyth due to local complaints about the noise.
Yep, poor gunnery
Beatty's guns had greater range than the enemy, and should have been able to inflict lethal damage whilst staying out of range of return fire. But for some reason they didn't open fire until within range of the German guns, thus wiping out that crucial advantage, and when they did open fire, missed. Beatty fancied himself as a bit of a Nelson but lacked the tactical judgement to balance the gung-ho. By contrast German gunnery was excellent, one reason being the superior optics in their rangefinders. Back to ship design: Battlecruisers, making their debut at Jutland, were supposed to outfight anything they couldn't outrun, and outrun anything they couldn't outfight. Unfortunately, to get sufficient speed, they were too lightly armoured and suffered accordingly. By contrast the German ships proved almost impossible to sink.
Whilst we lost Jutland in terms of ships, it did have the effect of keeping the German fleet in harbour for the rest of the war. Germans never seemed to use their ships aggressively - witness the pocket battleships of WW2 which spent most of their time running and hiding rather than being risked in action.
Have to say Portillo does a very good job with these history type programmes.
Very watchable.
Nice to see a picture of the giant trafalgar sausage, much better to see it close up than the view I got of it on saturday as it sailed over the pits at LeMans scaring the low flying aircraft !
>> Edited by baztard on Thursday 23 June 18:25
Very watchable.
Nice to see a picture of the giant trafalgar sausage, much better to see it close up than the view I got of it on saturday as it sailed over the pits at LeMans scaring the low flying aircraft !
>> Edited by baztard on Thursday 23 June 18:25
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