performance plateau?
Discussion
Autocar says the new M5 is a Ferrari beater, wether it is or not, are we now reaching the limits of performance in road cars?....are the major performance car manufacturers reaching a conclusion, are the TG Stig lap test results now all down to the last nanosecond?
Like the last of the great piston engined fighters, Bearcat, Sea Fury, Goodyear etc
>> Edited by apache on Tuesday 7th June 10:31
Like the last of the great piston engined fighters, Bearcat, Sea Fury, Goodyear etc
>> Edited by apache on Tuesday 7th June 10:31
I'm sure the same thought was thunk back in the early 1990s with the F40, XJ220, Diablo etc etc... On paper things haven't actually progressed *much* - BUT the delivery of power, quality of the package usability HAVE improved, although 0-60 and v-max perhaps haven't.
More importantly the availability to non-millionaire petrolheads like most of us has also improved dramatically! An f-430 or 911tt, for example, would be comparatively cheap compared to equivalent 'on-paper' performers of 15 years ago - its certainly going to be cheaper (if you can call running an F-car cheap
) to run an will take daily use and mileage better.
All IMO of course!
More importantly the availability to non-millionaire petrolheads like most of us has also improved dramatically! An f-430 or 911tt, for example, would be comparatively cheap compared to equivalent 'on-paper' performers of 15 years ago - its certainly going to be cheaper (if you can call running an F-car cheap
) to run an will take daily use and mileage better. All IMO of course!
No we haven't reached the top.
My Cerb does 60 in 3.9, 100 in 8.3 with a top of 195 so it is quite rapid. Yet it can be screwed on a dry road. Add in the advances in driver aid electronics and the constant improvement in tyres and I would be happy with a much better power/weight ratio. In fact I would be happy without those advances.
My Cerb does 60 in 3.9, 100 in 8.3 with a top of 195 so it is quite rapid. Yet it can be screwed on a dry road. Add in the advances in driver aid electronics and the constant improvement in tyres and I would be happy with a much better power/weight ratio. In fact I would be happy without those advances.
That is fair enough BB, but I don't think we are going to see a radical stepchange in performance now.
If we consider the difference between the general performance and ability of cars in the 1960's and 1970's to that of today there is a massive difference in capability.
I can't see a similar gulf developing between cars of today and those in twenty or thirty years time.
Most modern cars already massively exceed the traffic laws and requirements in terms of performance (both acceleration/V-Max and braking).
Sure, things like ceramic brakes on family saloons will come to pass - but the difference is nowhere near as significant as the difference between drum and disc brakes.
Power to weight is unlikely to improve significantly in any but the most extreme cars - as safety and comfort requirement preclude this. Sure Caterham may be able to make a car that ways 400kilos - but it's difficult to see how it can go much lower than that - surely 350kilos is about the max.
In addition, as most cars capabilities are already far in advance of most drivers, I would have to say that significantly more power in general use would not be a good thing.
Of course the exotica are the benchmark by which all cars performances are truly measured. If the Veyron can do 250mph (but only under incredibly exacting conditions) then I suspect very few manufacturers will try and chase that. To achive 260mph in a road car would be incredibly difficult as you would probably need another 300 bhp to get that extra 10mph. Even modern tyres aren't really up to it anyway.
So, I have rambled on a bit here, and I may very well be wrong in my assertions, but I think we are close to seeing the limit with the combustion engine and rubber tyres - maybe electic/fuel cell will be able to improve - after all a TGV can do 300mph.
>> Edited by alexkp on Tuesday 7th June 11:31
If we consider the difference between the general performance and ability of cars in the 1960's and 1970's to that of today there is a massive difference in capability.
I can't see a similar gulf developing between cars of today and those in twenty or thirty years time.
Most modern cars already massively exceed the traffic laws and requirements in terms of performance (both acceleration/V-Max and braking).
Sure, things like ceramic brakes on family saloons will come to pass - but the difference is nowhere near as significant as the difference between drum and disc brakes.
Power to weight is unlikely to improve significantly in any but the most extreme cars - as safety and comfort requirement preclude this. Sure Caterham may be able to make a car that ways 400kilos - but it's difficult to see how it can go much lower than that - surely 350kilos is about the max.
In addition, as most cars capabilities are already far in advance of most drivers, I would have to say that significantly more power in general use would not be a good thing.
Of course the exotica are the benchmark by which all cars performances are truly measured. If the Veyron can do 250mph (but only under incredibly exacting conditions) then I suspect very few manufacturers will try and chase that. To achive 260mph in a road car would be incredibly difficult as you would probably need another 300 bhp to get that extra 10mph. Even modern tyres aren't really up to it anyway.
So, I have rambled on a bit here, and I may very well be wrong in my assertions, but I think we are close to seeing the limit with the combustion engine and rubber tyres - maybe electic/fuel cell will be able to improve - after all a TGV can do 300mph.
>> Edited by alexkp on Tuesday 7th June 11:31
I think there is an awful lot more to it than just outright straight line acceleration. What we are seeing now is the more mundane vehicles increasing in performance. Certainly there is an awful lot of scope when you consider the lowest echelons of the market.
The top end of the market is always going to be pushing the envelope and along the way there will be a few seemingly backward steps in the name of usability but overall the envelope will continue to grow but it may not do so in ways you would normally expect.
To use F1 as a rather worn example - every year (near enough) the FIA impose more controls over different aspects in order to constrict top speeds and every year the developers come up with new ways to recover the losses. The general car market suffers similar constraints and is forced to learn how to best accomodate the changes and find ways to improve. The overall peek performance of the market as a whole may seem stable but the growth and development along the way are definitely there.
The fact that the likes of the Veyron has forced new developments in tyre construction begins to illustrate how obstacles can be overcome - it only takes someone to find a cheaper way to incorporate such things into the market and all of a sudden it becomes quite feasible to have cars going that quick (at least from a tyre perspective). Aerodynamics is another key element in all of this as perhaps more than any other aspect it is the heaviest component in the power-speed equation - the general trend is for cars to be developed with lower Cd values although this is somewhat offset by the trend towards bigger vehicles and this doesnt just affect top speed but fuel efficiency and vehicle stability as well.
I think what it comes down to really is that if you want to consider the performance envelope in just two dimensions (figuratively speaking) then it will reach a plateau but if you take a broader, deeper view then there is plenty of scope for growth and improvement.
The top end of the market is always going to be pushing the envelope and along the way there will be a few seemingly backward steps in the name of usability but overall the envelope will continue to grow but it may not do so in ways you would normally expect.
To use F1 as a rather worn example - every year (near enough) the FIA impose more controls over different aspects in order to constrict top speeds and every year the developers come up with new ways to recover the losses. The general car market suffers similar constraints and is forced to learn how to best accomodate the changes and find ways to improve. The overall peek performance of the market as a whole may seem stable but the growth and development along the way are definitely there.
The fact that the likes of the Veyron has forced new developments in tyre construction begins to illustrate how obstacles can be overcome - it only takes someone to find a cheaper way to incorporate such things into the market and all of a sudden it becomes quite feasible to have cars going that quick (at least from a tyre perspective). Aerodynamics is another key element in all of this as perhaps more than any other aspect it is the heaviest component in the power-speed equation - the general trend is for cars to be developed with lower Cd values although this is somewhat offset by the trend towards bigger vehicles and this doesnt just affect top speed but fuel efficiency and vehicle stability as well.
I think what it comes down to really is that if you want to consider the performance envelope in just two dimensions (figuratively speaking) then it will reach a plateau but if you take a broader, deeper view then there is plenty of scope for growth and improvement.
I think there’s plenty to come yet. 250 mph and 1000 bhp will be the bench mark for high performance cars within 20 years. And I’m talking about the “Standard” model Ferraris Porsches and TVR’s here not the CGT’s, Zonda’s, F1’s and Enzo’s.
When the Countach came out in the early 70´s it was the first production car to top 300 kmh. 10 years ago 200 mph was reserved for only the ultimate cars. Now all of the aforementioned makes have a 200 mph car in their stable. 450+ bhp is already common and a couple of the German Uber Cruisers have well over 500. I think we’ll see 210-215 & 600 bhp as the norm within 5-10 years.
I don’t think you’ll see much change in terms of overall design concepts. Change will come from advances in material technology (thus making cars lighter and engines that can rev higher) and computer technology. This in turn will allow more efficient packaging and thus designers will have greater freedom with aerodynamics.
When the Countach came out in the early 70´s it was the first production car to top 300 kmh. 10 years ago 200 mph was reserved for only the ultimate cars. Now all of the aforementioned makes have a 200 mph car in their stable. 450+ bhp is already common and a couple of the German Uber Cruisers have well over 500. I think we’ll see 210-215 & 600 bhp as the norm within 5-10 years.
I don’t think you’ll see much change in terms of overall design concepts. Change will come from advances in material technology (thus making cars lighter and engines that can rev higher) and computer technology. This in turn will allow more efficient packaging and thus designers will have greater freedom with aerodynamics.
t1grm said:
I think there’s plenty to come yet. 250 mph and 1000 bhp will be the bench mark for high performance cars within 20 years. And I’m talking about the “Standard” model Ferraris Porsches and TVR’s here not the CGT’s, Zonda’s, F1’s and Enzo’s.
In theory, perhaps, but is the average car enthusiast able to handle 1000bhp? 500bhp may however become the standard for heavier luxury performance vehicles eg M5-rivals to help with progressive driving.
shadowninja said:
I think there’s plenty to come yet. 250 mph and 1000 bhp will be the bench mark for high performance cars within 20 years. And I’m talking about the “Standard” model Ferraris Porsches and TVR’s here not the CGT’s, Zonda’s, F1’s and Enzo’s.
In theory, perhaps, but is the average car enthusiast able to handle 1000bhp? 500bhp may however become the standard for heavier luxury performance vehicles eg M5-rivals to help with progressive driving.
I think this is perhaps where most of the gains in performance are being made - not in building cars with such monsterous power (1000bhp engines have been around for a long time) but making such power accessible both in terms of cost and driveability are much more within the grasp of joe average. Building such a car that allows you to use the full range of power delivery without killing the driver at the first bump in the road is far more difficult than the building the engine in the first place.
t1grm said:
I think there’s plenty to come yet. 250 mph and 1000 bhp will be the bench mark for high performance cars within 20 years. And I’m talking about the “Standard” model Ferraris Porsches and TVR’s here not the CGT’s, Zonda’s, F1’s and Enzo’s.
I don't think so - you're taking the trend over the
past 20 years and assuming that it will continue
for the next 20. I think you'll find the peak
has already been reached, or shortly will be. Even
today, would you *really* buy a 1000bhp / 250mph
TVR or Ferrari? - either the thing would be completely
undriveable on the road, or have so much intervention
from 'driver aids' that you may as well be a passenger
for all of the driver involvement - and where the
hell are you going to do 250mph? - you'd be starting
to pull some serious lateral G around any track that
I can think of.
-DeaDLocK- said:
Once you hit 600bhp/ton you have a car that is fast enough to literally induce nausea and in some rare cases black-outs.
Exactly. Although it's interesting that the Fiat
Multipla can also generate those symptoms - although
that's a function of appearance rather than performance.
Gassing Station | The Pie & Piston Archive | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff