VE Day, WW2 and commemorations
Discussion
Good to see that the event is taken seriously in Russia.
In fact, this day is commemorated every year in Russia and they work hard to make sure that their society recognises the sacrifices made by their countrymen.
Sure, there is a lot to criticize where Russia and the old soviet Union is concerned, but this sense of historical significance ( even if it is politicised ) is important.
I am sad that the UK does not seem to take education seriously. It is depressing that too many schoolkids have only a cursory understanding of what happened just 60 odd years ago.
Its also interesting to hear about WW2 from a Russian perspective. It is fair to say that WW2 was not won by Tom Hanks.
The Allied invasion on D Day, although critical, was not the sole killer factor that led to the demise of the Nazi's. Indeed, D day would not have succeeded if Germany was not fighting a bitter war on its eastern front which took the lives of millions of German troops.
We need more history programming in this country. More drama's , more movies, more ways to educate the young.
I want a young teenager these days , who may look on a Spitfire or a Mustang at an air show, or see or read something about Russia, to know what happened and to understand how and why the world is shaped the way it is, and the many millions who died in the process on all sides.
Sometimes I worry that the education of these issues is not good enough.
So , a quick PH straw poll, especially among the younger of the collective:
Do you guys feel that the events of WW2 , how it came to be and what happened during those 6 years, are well taught in the schools?
I worry that they are not.
In fact, this day is commemorated every year in Russia and they work hard to make sure that their society recognises the sacrifices made by their countrymen.
Sure, there is a lot to criticize where Russia and the old soviet Union is concerned, but this sense of historical significance ( even if it is politicised ) is important.
I am sad that the UK does not seem to take education seriously. It is depressing that too many schoolkids have only a cursory understanding of what happened just 60 odd years ago.
Its also interesting to hear about WW2 from a Russian perspective. It is fair to say that WW2 was not won by Tom Hanks.
The Allied invasion on D Day, although critical, was not the sole killer factor that led to the demise of the Nazi's. Indeed, D day would not have succeeded if Germany was not fighting a bitter war on its eastern front which took the lives of millions of German troops.
We need more history programming in this country. More drama's , more movies, more ways to educate the young.
I want a young teenager these days , who may look on a Spitfire or a Mustang at an air show, or see or read something about Russia, to know what happened and to understand how and why the world is shaped the way it is, and the many millions who died in the process on all sides.
Sometimes I worry that the education of these issues is not good enough.
So , a quick PH straw poll, especially among the younger of the collective:
Do you guys feel that the events of WW2 , how it came to be and what happened during those 6 years, are well taught in the schools?
I worry that they are not.
If you want an idea of how we reagrd ww2 in the Uk, recall what they did to poor old Winston's statue on the May day demo a few years ago. Collective memory of goldfish unless it relates to the rules on collecting benefits or the cheapest place to buy fags.
Disgraceful that we consign the people to whom we owe, well just about everything, to half an hour on a Sunday morning each November when most of them are in bed.
Disgraceful that we consign the people to whom we owe, well just about everything, to half an hour on a Sunday morning each November when most of them are in bed.
I am probably going to take a beating here but,,,,,
Yes it is important to remember these things and to be grateful for the sacrifises (sp)others made for our freedom but for how many more years are we
(as i see it) going to rubb the Germans noses in it every year.
Its almost as if we have to go all the way back to 1945 to feel good about our selves or to be proud of anything .
Just curious about the whole thing .
Yes it is important to remember these things and to be grateful for the sacrifises (sp)others made for our freedom but for how many more years are we
(as i see it) going to rubb the Germans noses in it every year.
Its almost as if we have to go all the way back to 1945 to feel good about our selves or to be proud of anything .
Just curious about the whole thing .
I have been a "fan" (if you can be such a thing) of WW2 since I was a kid in the 60s. Back then, young boys were fed a constant stream of war stories - from dads, uncles, older brothers even, comics, blockbuster movies and Airfix kits. WW2 was "in the air". You had to go out of your way to avoid it. Even if it wasn't formally taught in school, hardly anyone was unaware of it.
By the 70s, thimes were changing. The WW2 generation began to die off, comics began to die off too and movies shifted into the "Star Wars" era. WW2 was no longer the inspiration for "action" and "adventure" stories it once had been. Kids growing up in the 1970s began to be less exposed to the "culture" of WW2.
However, times have moved even further on. We are now surrounded by media of all sorts. Cable and satellite TV has dedicated history channels and these channels seem to allocate the bulk of their time to the subject of WW2 (probably because there is abundant film footage available). The school curiculum now features WW2 as part of normal history and there are far more active events in place commemorating WW2 - often making sure that school children get to meet the surviving veterans. The internet is awash with sites dedicated to all sorts of aspects of WW2 as well - so there are far less excuses for being ignorant of the war now.
So, all is not lost at all. I would say more children are exposed to the story of WW2 now than at any time since the 1950s and 60s and the decline in general knowledge and understanding of the war amongst the young has, to a large extent, been halted.
By the 70s, thimes were changing. The WW2 generation began to die off, comics began to die off too and movies shifted into the "Star Wars" era. WW2 was no longer the inspiration for "action" and "adventure" stories it once had been. Kids growing up in the 1970s began to be less exposed to the "culture" of WW2.
However, times have moved even further on. We are now surrounded by media of all sorts. Cable and satellite TV has dedicated history channels and these channels seem to allocate the bulk of their time to the subject of WW2 (probably because there is abundant film footage available). The school curiculum now features WW2 as part of normal history and there are far more active events in place commemorating WW2 - often making sure that school children get to meet the surviving veterans. The internet is awash with sites dedicated to all sorts of aspects of WW2 as well - so there are far less excuses for being ignorant of the war now.
So, all is not lost at all. I would say more children are exposed to the story of WW2 now than at any time since the 1950s and 60s and the decline in general knowledge and understanding of the war amongst the young has, to a large extent, been halted.
Russia almost certainly carried the bulk of the Allied effort in WW2.
But don't forget that until 1941, the Russians were in an uneasy pact with the Germans, and participated in the occupation of Poland - and there were many 'disappearances' of Polish officers on the Russian side.
From Hitler's attack on Russia in 1941, Stalin was crying out for a second front in Europe, which wasn't possible by the UK/USA until D-day - the Africa/Italian invasion was not recognised as a full front, and did not relieve the Russians of the presure of the German battalions.
The Russians were supplied through the Arctic convoys, plus some transit through Iran.
By 1944, when it was clear the Germans were crumbling it became a race to secure the larger portion of Europe as a bargaining counter at the post-war settlement - Austria was nearly in the eastern bloc too.
The Russians took on the fighting of the whole of the Eastern front for 4 years, but at the same time they were playing politics with the UK/USA all the way. In most countries they 'liberated', they incited internal conflict between the resistance factions in the favour of 'their' faction, which continued for 45 years afterwards.
I thouroughly recommend Churchill's history of WW2 - rather Churchill-centric, not surprisingly, and rather re-wrote bits of reality, but a must for anyone interested.
But don't forget that until 1941, the Russians were in an uneasy pact with the Germans, and participated in the occupation of Poland - and there were many 'disappearances' of Polish officers on the Russian side.
From Hitler's attack on Russia in 1941, Stalin was crying out for a second front in Europe, which wasn't possible by the UK/USA until D-day - the Africa/Italian invasion was not recognised as a full front, and did not relieve the Russians of the presure of the German battalions.
The Russians were supplied through the Arctic convoys, plus some transit through Iran.
By 1944, when it was clear the Germans were crumbling it became a race to secure the larger portion of Europe as a bargaining counter at the post-war settlement - Austria was nearly in the eastern bloc too.
The Russians took on the fighting of the whole of the Eastern front for 4 years, but at the same time they were playing politics with the UK/USA all the way. In most countries they 'liberated', they incited internal conflict between the resistance factions in the favour of 'their' faction, which continued for 45 years afterwards.
I thouroughly recommend Churchill's history of WW2 - rather Churchill-centric, not surprisingly, and rather re-wrote bits of reality, but a must for anyone interested.
I'm at uni and have siblings still at school.
I think it is well taught, and if it's an enthusiastic teacher the kids are interested. There may have been a dark age in the 80s or something, but today, WWII is alive in scools.
Plus many young boys enjoy watching the hisory channel, and young people do feel it's relevent to the way we live today.
I think it is well taught, and if it's an enthusiastic teacher the kids are interested. There may have been a dark age in the 80s or something, but today, WWII is alive in scools.
Plus many young boys enjoy watching the hisory channel, and young people do feel it's relevent to the way we live today.
Eric Mc said:
I have been a "fan" (if you can be such a thing) of WW2 since I was a kid in the 60s. Back then, young boys were fed a constant stream of war stories - from dads, uncles, older brothers even, comics, blockbuster movies and Airfix kits. WW2 was "in the air". You had to go out of your way to avoid it. Even if it wasn't formally taught in school, hardly anyone was unaware of it.
When i was a kid (born in 57) i thought WW2 was still going strong and was terrified of Ze Germans , my Grannie would proudly point out the chip in the back door step where alledegdly a piece of shrapnel from a Doodlebug hit while she was standing there with my newborn Uncle in her arms
We were taught nothing of WW2 at school apart from anecdotes from teachers who may or may not have been there.
A 2nd Uncle was apparently aboard the Hood on its final voyage , my mother swears she was chased down the road and straffed by a German plane
(i always imagened it was a BF 109) on the way back from the local Dairy .
It gos on and on in the folkk law of my family , i do know when i was very young thayt my favourite uncle was on Submarines for the RN , i used to fret about his safety (this was about 1963 ) i was convinced he would be sunk by Ze Germans .
My Mother god bless her shes 74 ,she has traveled to Stockholm and Copenhagen to visit me , when i moved to Cologne this year she politly declined an invitation to come over
i did point out that the war has been over some time. >> Edited by Marki on Monday 9th May 18:25
While the horror of Nazi'ism is well documented, I must admit to wanting to know more about the plight of ordinary German's.
It is said that "The Winner get to write the history". And it seems to me that there is masses of history, suffering, bravery and courage that is a part of German history too.
Away from the politics and horrors of the wermacht, the fighting in Germany ( especially in the east against Russia ) was a desparate struggle of people simply fighting to protect their homeland, their kids, their wives, from aggressive invading and overwhelming forces.
By all accounts the battles were brutal and the heroism considerable. The treatment of women by the invading red army, the way that totally outnumbered German forces defended themselves so well, there are so many stories to tell. But somehow, as the Germans were the ones defeated, we never get to learn of their story.
I think we should learn all that we can from both sides. Knowing our history helps us shape our future.
It is said that "The Winner get to write the history". And it seems to me that there is masses of history, suffering, bravery and courage that is a part of German history too.
Away from the politics and horrors of the wermacht, the fighting in Germany ( especially in the east against Russia ) was a desparate struggle of people simply fighting to protect their homeland, their kids, their wives, from aggressive invading and overwhelming forces.
By all accounts the battles were brutal and the heroism considerable. The treatment of women by the invading red army, the way that totally outnumbered German forces defended themselves so well, there are so many stories to tell. But somehow, as the Germans were the ones defeated, we never get to learn of their story.
I think we should learn all that we can from both sides. Knowing our history helps us shape our future.
I find it quite hard to relate to (I'm 28). So, on rememberance day, VE and VJ day I tend to have a quiet moment thinking what it would be like if me and my best mates all had to go off to fight a war, with a good number of us not coming back. Then I think about the things that I(we) have done since the young age that many of the soildiers in WW2 died and now. That tends to make me think quite hard and chuck a good few quid in a collection tin.
I can't understand people who think it should all be forgotten. Mucking about 10 years ago is pretty fresh in my mind, so I'm sure 60-odd years ago hasn't been forgotten by those who were involved. The least we owe them is a little respect and consideration. Perhaps when they have all gone, as will happen over the next 10-15 years we can have a single day of rememberence, but right now we should show our gratitude on every anniversary it is possible!
Why no big VE day celebration? I read it was because that would mean a big VJ day celebration - which is when the civil servents are on holiday - so instead we have a single day on a nonesense date???? Really??? The amount of money this government wastes on shite and inefficiency we could have spared 2 days to show some old boys that 60-years on we are still grateful.
I can't understand people who think it should all be forgotten. Mucking about 10 years ago is pretty fresh in my mind, so I'm sure 60-odd years ago hasn't been forgotten by those who were involved. The least we owe them is a little respect and consideration. Perhaps when they have all gone, as will happen over the next 10-15 years we can have a single day of rememberence, but right now we should show our gratitude on every anniversary it is possible!
Why no big VE day celebration? I read it was because that would mean a big VJ day celebration - which is when the civil servents are on holiday - so instead we have a single day on a nonesense date???? Really??? The amount of money this government wastes on shite and inefficiency we could have spared 2 days to show some old boys that 60-years on we are still grateful.
toppstuff said:
While the horror of Nazi'ism is well documented, I must admit to wanting to know more about the plight of ordinary German's.
I am also interested in the other sides story mate , i have been lucky enought to work wit two Germans who were from the East and could not or did not return afer capture .
Fascinating tales they had to offer and after filtering very little in the way of BS , Karl Gasky was one a fine man who i really got on with, fought on the Russian front from what he told me it was not so much fighting a war as fighting for survival his storys matched almost exactly to tales told by British veterans i have worked with .
Another man i worked with in the Gypsom mines ,Fritz when asked how you could fall for Hitlers propaganda replyed " well then you get the uniforn and are in the Army , and then you are every ones hero and the girls are all over you by the time you realise what you are signed up for its too bloody late"
I wwould like to think today this sort of thing xcould never happen again , with the internet and foriegn travel and the internationalisation of the world , but in the 1930"s we had none of these information sources , i guess thats a big part of how Mr H got away with it.
toppstuff said:Toppstuff, as you probably know, I went to school up to the Abitur, so I got the full 13 years of school education in Germany. I finished school eight years ago.
Do you guys feel that the events of WW2 , how it came to be and what happened during those 6 years, are well taught in the schools?
Since this part of history is very important to Germany AND to every individual human, it is well covered in the syllabus of instruction. Any of the three school-types in the educational system covers the third reich, so every pupil should be at least be aware of what happend in the last century. In the Gymnasium I have visited, we copiuosly discussed, how the Nazis could gain power, and under which circumstances this could happen again, how we can realise when it happens again.
We compared existing constitutions on how they prevent happening something like the Nazi government again.
I had the luck of having a grandfather who elaborately talked about the war and the Nazis. He has been in the Wehrmacht, fought on the Ostfront and finally ended up in British war captivity, so he certainly experienced that time. I used the term "luck", because not every contemporary witness of the Nazi era likes talking about what they did/experienced. Their children and grandchildren had to learn from school what happened.
I don't have representative experience on how other nations/cultures teach people about the third reich, but the bandwith started on people who thought that "Adolf Hitler is the current president of Germany" to people of my age that could teach me things about German history, I didn't knew before.
I'm satisfied with the extent of third reich contents in German lessons, but I'd like to see more work done on the conclusions this horrible part of history could give future generations.
The most interesting part for me (apart from anything to do with WW2 aviation) is the rise of Hitler in Germany in the 1930s. There are huge lessons to be learned in this for EVERYONE - including us here in Britain.
When I see gypsies,immigrants and "foreigners" in general being slagged off on Pistonheads, little shudders run down my spine.
When I see gypsies,immigrants and "foreigners" in general being slagged off on Pistonheads, little shudders run down my spine.
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