Suicide Question
Discussion
Got a call yesterday from my business partner to tell me that a contractor we used in the past had committed suicide. Hung himself at the weekend.
What I don't understand is why he could never make that final cry for help.
I didn't know him that well, but even I would of driven hundreds of miles to stop it happening and I don't think I'm particulary special in that respect - i think anyone would do something similar.
He had a family he could of turned to but didn't.
What I dont understand though is what traps you into a corner that you feel the only way out is suicide rather than asking for help.
What I don't understand is why he could never make that final cry for help.
I didn't know him that well, but even I would of driven hundreds of miles to stop it happening and I don't think I'm particulary special in that respect - i think anyone would do something similar.
He had a family he could of turned to but didn't.
What I dont understand though is what traps you into a corner that you feel the only way out is suicide rather than asking for help.
slight pet hate, people are hanged, meat is hung
Having been through this experience quite recently, not suicide I hasten to point out, the fallout of it, I can only conclude that I still dont understand.
As close as I got to rationalising the entire sorry affair was that its somewhat ironic that if you have the will to take that most final of steps then you definately have the will to sort out any of the issues which are causing your upset.
Its a horrible thing to experience, suicide leaves so many unreconciled thoughts both positive and negative. They say its the most selfish thing and I have to say I agree.
Having been through this experience quite recently, not suicide I hasten to point out, the fallout of it, I can only conclude that I still dont understand.
As close as I got to rationalising the entire sorry affair was that its somewhat ironic that if you have the will to take that most final of steps then you definately have the will to sort out any of the issues which are causing your upset.
Its a horrible thing to experience, suicide leaves so many unreconciled thoughts both positive and negative. They say its the most selfish thing and I have to say I agree.
Sad. Very sad.
And if we could work out the answer to this, the world would be a better place.
About 15 years ago, I had a buisness that went bust. We'd been married for about 2 years and worked damned hard to acheive what we had, which just dissappeared over a period of 8 months. We lost everything - house, car, financial freedom. We had serious threats of physical harm from companies who had "purchased" debts from my debtors. All because a bast@ard client refused to pay!
I felt excpetionaly low - not for me but for Mrs Bee. She had no right to expect what I was putting her through and for a brief period, considered that by topping myself would provide her the financial freedom she deserved.
Thinking and doing are two different things though and although it was an option, there's no way I could have actually done it (i think!) but the very fact that it was an option shows how easily it can become so.
I'm glad I didn't as we're still married, blissfully happy and far stronger as a result of what we went through.
I'm also torn between viewing suicide as a mix of the ultimate act of cowardice and absolute sorrow for the situation people find themselves in.
By the way, the correct term is "hanged". One of the odditied of the English language.
And if we could work out the answer to this, the world would be a better place.
About 15 years ago, I had a buisness that went bust. We'd been married for about 2 years and worked damned hard to acheive what we had, which just dissappeared over a period of 8 months. We lost everything - house, car, financial freedom. We had serious threats of physical harm from companies who had "purchased" debts from my debtors. All because a bast@ard client refused to pay!
I felt excpetionaly low - not for me but for Mrs Bee. She had no right to expect what I was putting her through and for a brief period, considered that by topping myself would provide her the financial freedom she deserved.
Thinking and doing are two different things though and although it was an option, there's no way I could have actually done it (i think!) but the very fact that it was an option shows how easily it can become so.
I'm glad I didn't as we're still married, blissfully happy and far stronger as a result of what we went through.
I'm also torn between viewing suicide as a mix of the ultimate act of cowardice and absolute sorrow for the situation people find themselves in.
By the way, the correct term is "hanged". One of the odditied of the English language.
Sad. Very sad.
And if we could work out the answer to this, the world would be a better place.
About 15 years ago, I had a buisness that went bust. We'd been married for about 2 years and worked damned hard to acheive what we had, which just dissappeared over a period of 8 months. We lost everything - house, car, financial freedom. We had serious threats of physical harm from companies who had "purchased" debts from my debtors. All because a bast@ard client refused to pay!
I felt excpetionaly low - not for me but for Mrs Bee. She had no right to expect what I was putting her through and for a brief period, considered that by topping myself would provide her the financial freedom she deserved.
Thinking and doing are two different things though and although it was an option, there's no way I could have actually done it (i think!) but the very fact that it was an option shows how easily it can become so.
I'm glad I didn't as we're still married, blissfully happy and far stronger as a result of what we went through.
I'm also torn between viewing suicide as a mix of the ultimate act of cowardice and absolute sorrow for the situation people find themselves in.
By the way, the correct term is "hanged". One of the odditied of the English language.
And if we could work out the answer to this, the world would be a better place.
About 15 years ago, I had a buisness that went bust. We'd been married for about 2 years and worked damned hard to acheive what we had, which just dissappeared over a period of 8 months. We lost everything - house, car, financial freedom. We had serious threats of physical harm from companies who had "purchased" debts from my debtors. All because a bast@ard client refused to pay!
I felt excpetionaly low - not for me but for Mrs Bee. She had no right to expect what I was putting her through and for a brief period, considered that by topping myself would provide her the financial freedom she deserved.
Thinking and doing are two different things though and although it was an option, there's no way I could have actually done it (i think!) but the very fact that it was an option shows how easily it can become so.
I'm glad I didn't as we're still married, blissfully happy and far stronger as a result of what we went through.
I'm also torn between viewing suicide as a mix of the ultimate act of cowardice and absolute sorrow for the situation people find themselves in.
By the way, the correct term is "hanged". One of the odditied of the English language.
I think there is also a huge gap in the nhs for helping and treating people with suicidal thoughts/depression etc. If you take a patient into hospital who has taken a overdose or feels they are a danger to themselves they wont be seen by a psychiatrist or mental health visitor if they've been drinking.This sometimes means they are sent home with an appointment for another day?!I took a patient in after a life threatening overdose, they were in intensive care for a week. A month later patient hung himself and suceeded.I dont know if there was any follow up care? I suppose they feel there isnt anyone they can talk too and that they have no options.
the hooves said:
I think there is also a huge gap in the nhs for helping and treating people with suicidal thoughts/depression etc. If you take a patient into hospital who has taken a overdose or feels they are a danger to themselves they wont be seen by a psychiatrist or mental health visitor if they've been drinking.This sometimes means they are sent home with an appointment for another day?!I took a patient in after a life threatening overdose, they were in intensive care for a week. A month later patient hung himself and suceeded.I dont know if there was any follow up care? I suppose they feel there isnt anyone they can talk too and that they have no options.
My friend was in an NHS run mental health facility when she hanged herself.
einion yrth said:
I think there is also a huge gap in the nhs for helping and treating people with suicidal thoughts/depression etc. If you take a patient into hospital who has taken a overdose or feels they are a danger to themselves they wont be seen by a psychiatrist or mental health visitor if they've been drinking.This sometimes means they are sent home with an appointment for another day?!I took a patient in after a life threatening overdose, they were in intensive care for a week. A month later patient hung himself and suceeded.I dont know if there was any follow up care? I suppose they feel there isnt anyone they can talk too and that they have no options.
My friend was in an NHS run mental health facility when she hanged herself.
No offence guys - I'm not looking to make this thread a dialogue of NHS services.
a bloke i worked with ended his life 3 years ago and to everyone he worked with he was the life and soul always joking and having a laugh but his family had been helping him battle manic depression for years on the quiet and they obviously thought there was nothing work "mates" could do to help probably rightly so.
a nieghbour of mine also committed suicide but tragically also took the lives of his 3 lovely kids before he ended his own. it was a horrible time for everyone even vaguely involved and when it hit the press all the people i worked with branded this man a monster.....he certainly wasn't in fact he doted on his kids and i cannot imagine what was going through his head at the time i just wish he had cried out for help and that i would have been able to help him, i miss him and often think about the fun those kids would have had and shared over the years were they still with us.
i guess all anyone can do is lend an ear when it is asked for and be positive.
anyway chin up folks and count your blessings
by the way little red dont you ever sleep???
a nieghbour of mine also committed suicide but tragically also took the lives of his 3 lovely kids before he ended his own. it was a horrible time for everyone even vaguely involved and when it hit the press all the people i worked with branded this man a monster.....he certainly wasn't in fact he doted on his kids and i cannot imagine what was going through his head at the time i just wish he had cried out for help and that i would have been able to help him, i miss him and often think about the fun those kids would have had and shared over the years were they still with us.
i guess all anyone can do is lend an ear when it is asked for and be positive.
anyway chin up folks and count your blessings
by the way little red dont you ever sleep???
The nhs is certainly missing something with regards to mental health. I'm not blaming them it just annoys me personally that some people have called asking for help admitting they have a problem which is the biggest step and they get no where or put on a waitng list for therapy. Everyone deals with rejection differently, if your depressed I think this would just add to it making them feel worse about themselves and more inadequate or feel there faking.
tinman0 said:
Got a call yesterday from my business partner to tell me that a contractor we used in the past had committed suicide. Hung himself at the weekend.
What I don't understand is why he could never make that final cry for help.
I didn't know him that well, but even I would of driven hundreds of miles to stop it happening and I don't think I'm particulary special in that respect - i think anyone would do something similar.
He had a family he could of turned to but didn't.
What I dont understand though is what traps you into a corner that you feel the only way out is suicide rather than asking for help.
sometimes people just cant deal with certain things from their pasts other times its because of a mental health related issue its really not that easy to understand.
Plotloss said:
They say its the most selfish thing and I have to say I agree.
sometimes you just have to think of yourself, it may have been that a person is in the position they are in because they were being unselfish helping others and getting put upon.
Perhaps the people who should have been helping were actually the problem.
cotty said:If someone is feeling suicidal, they have reached a point at which they cant cope with their own emotions and reality. Depending on the person, and their emotional state, thinking about who they are leaving behind may be too much to even consider, let alone influence their decision.
They say its the most selfish thing and I have to say I agree.
sometimes you just have to think of yourself, it may have been that a person is in the position they are in because they were being unselfish helping others and getting put upon.
Perhaps the people who should have been helping were actually the problem.
Coroners may have sufficient evidence to establish verdict but not enough (understandably) to establish motivation. This leaves friends and relatives with endless 'whys' and 'what ifs'.
Research in this area has tended to take the form of 'psychological post mortem' on a series of suicide. ie interview relatives/friends to establish state of mind prior to death. Although this is a flawed method it seems to point to mental illness in vast majority of suicide deaths. Often people have lost touch with reality believe they have let their family down, have an incurable disease, are about to be murdered by an imagined persecutor, or simply have had enough of unrelieved mental suffering and can see no way out. Some will have made their minds up and don't want to be stopped. Hence they don't communicate
Every year NHS A&E depts see at least 250000 people after self harm. Threats to harm self are common in troubled familes and relationships and in health settings. These millions of episodes go uncounted. About 4000 people commit suicide each year (this continues to fall over the decades). Not all of the 4000 will have had any prior contact with mental health services or A&E or made a threat to a family member/friend. Short of new methods of being able to predict the future, identifying those most at risk and in need of help will remain a difficult and inexact science.
1/5 of Consultant Psychiatrist post are unfilled in the NHS. There's an unhealthy blame culture (which some of you seem to want to contribute to) and stigma around mental health problems. It's not unusual for 1 year plus waiting lists for talking therapies. Some of this is down to chronic underfunding. Some of it is because the brightest and the best in medicine, nursing and social work may not be attracted to work in an area where your difficult decisions, made in the context of limited resources, may be picked over (with the benefit of hindsight) by the coroner, journalists and the idle opinionated.
T
Research in this area has tended to take the form of 'psychological post mortem' on a series of suicide. ie interview relatives/friends to establish state of mind prior to death. Although this is a flawed method it seems to point to mental illness in vast majority of suicide deaths. Often people have lost touch with reality believe they have let their family down, have an incurable disease, are about to be murdered by an imagined persecutor, or simply have had enough of unrelieved mental suffering and can see no way out. Some will have made their minds up and don't want to be stopped. Hence they don't communicate
Every year NHS A&E depts see at least 250000 people after self harm. Threats to harm self are common in troubled familes and relationships and in health settings. These millions of episodes go uncounted. About 4000 people commit suicide each year (this continues to fall over the decades). Not all of the 4000 will have had any prior contact with mental health services or A&E or made a threat to a family member/friend. Short of new methods of being able to predict the future, identifying those most at risk and in need of help will remain a difficult and inexact science.
1/5 of Consultant Psychiatrist post are unfilled in the NHS. There's an unhealthy blame culture (which some of you seem to want to contribute to) and stigma around mental health problems. It's not unusual for 1 year plus waiting lists for talking therapies. Some of this is down to chronic underfunding. Some of it is because the brightest and the best in medicine, nursing and social work may not be attracted to work in an area where your difficult decisions, made in the context of limited resources, may be picked over (with the benefit of hindsight) by the coroner, journalists and the idle opinionated.
T
Plotloss said:
slight pet hate, people are hanged, meat is hung
Having been through this experience quite recently, not suicide I hasten to point out, the fallout of it, I can only conclude that I still dont understand.
As close as I got to rationalising the entire sorry affair was that its somewhat ironic that if you have the will to take that most final of steps then you definately have the will to sort out any of the issues which are causing your upset.
Its a horrible thing to experience, suicide leaves so many unreconciled thoughts both positive and negative. They say its the most selfish thing and I have to say I agree.
I have known several people who have committed suicide. Our greatest instinct is self-preservation. A person can only consider suicide if they are mentally ill. A mentally ill person doesn't act rationally. Anybody who is not mentally ill will always instinctively feel that suicide is selfish and unfathomable - after all, the only way to ensure that your life gets no better is to end it...
It is too simplistic to say that suicide is selfish. Suicide is the unfortunate conclusion of a specific mental illness. The name most of us recognise for that illness is depression.
Having properly hit the armco with depression recently, I am lucky to be back on the track. I suppose it's more of a severe version of it but the helplessness is the same. As the Doc told me, there are 2 views of depression, chemical induced (monamine inbalance) or shitty life depression. One is treatable with chemicals, the other is not. Shitty life depression generally results in a fully aware, helpless to do anything about it paradox. You've got your pride, hope and drives but are just up to your neck in unsolvable glue. Quite often, it results in a mindset to sort yourself out which is rather difficult and sometimes a downward helix. Personally I felt like I couldn't talk to anyone as I had tried before and it was just like putting a flame out with petrol, I was met with the "
ing well get a grip and shut up" attitude or the "You'll get over it" slant. I suppose a certain type of personality just says 'sod it'.
Having spent most of my life as one of those people who is unsinkable, I can say the most offensive preposition is that of a person completely ignorant of the situation telling you to get a grip. It's made me have a bit of insight into what makes a lot of people tick.
A few genuine people saying "Are you allright mate?" would have probably sorted him out a lot. It's surprising how few people do. Depression made me blunt to other people and after it, I look at my mates with a closer eye to really see if they are OK, it's a good thing for everyone to practice.
Anyway, I'm fully functioning again so I can climb aboard the "Darwinian" bandwagon.
Enough bollox from me again.
ing well get a grip and shut up" attitude or the "You'll get over it" slant. I suppose a certain type of personality just says 'sod it'. Having spent most of my life as one of those people who is unsinkable, I can say the most offensive preposition is that of a person completely ignorant of the situation telling you to get a grip. It's made me have a bit of insight into what makes a lot of people tick.
A few genuine people saying "Are you allright mate?" would have probably sorted him out a lot. It's surprising how few people do. Depression made me blunt to other people and after it, I look at my mates with a closer eye to really see if they are OK, it's a good thing for everyone to practice.
Anyway, I'm fully functioning again so I can climb aboard the "Darwinian" bandwagon.
Enough bollox from me again.
Sorry if this is an aside on a very serious issue but I worry sometimes about the way the local media reports suicide. I worked in a town where we had a series of suicides by jumping from a newly constructed brige. I spoke with a psychiatrist at the time who said that local 'spates' can occur when a successful method is detailed in the media. People who are already contemplating the act realise that this is going to work and follow suit. My local media are always detailing inquests where people have hanged themselves, giving details of the materials and sites used. I noticed that there were klittle flurries using the same method. If I knew nothing before, by reading these weekly reports with graphic details I do now about the way to go about it. If I was in despair being offered a sure fire way might be the final push (how many suicides in the uS are firearms related because they are available when people are low?). I had thought about writing a private letter to our local paper editor and the coroner to ask them to reveal less detail, but don't have much confidence in the local press.
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