New Face ... Same Old Crap
Discussion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4100629.stm
Clarke to press on with ID cards
New Home Secretary Charles Clarke has vowed to plough on with plans for ID cards despite a call for him to "pause for thought" from Charles Kennedy.
The Lib Dem leader said David Blunkett's resignation was a "good opportunity" to question whether the legislation was necessary.
But Mr Clarke said he had supported the plans when Mr Blunkett argued for them in Cabinet and he supported them now.
"ID cards are a means to creating a more secure society," he said.
Mr Clarke acknowledged how the measure was introduced remained a matter for debate but he said legislation had already been "significantly influenced" by the recommendations of the Commons' home affairs committee.
Tory backing
The issue would be debated in Parliament next Monday as scheduled he insisted.
Earlier Mr Kennedy, whose party opposes the ID cards plan as "deeply flawed" said with Christmas coming up the new home secretary had time to think again.
He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that Mr Clarke had been reported to be less enthusiastic about ID cards than his predecessors.
"Wouldn't this be a good opportunity for a new home secretary, a new broom, to sweep clean in this respect and why do we need this legislation in the first place?" he asked.
Earlier this week the Tories announced they would back the government's plans although Michael Howard was forced to deny the shadow cabinet was split over its decision.
Margins?
They had decided to support the plans as the police said they would help fight terror, crime and illegal immigration.
Among those reported to have serious reservations over the strategy were senior shadow cabinet members David Davis, Oliver Letwin and Tim Yeo.
The chairman of the Bar Council, Guy Mansfield QC has warned there is a real risk that people on the "margins of society" would be driven into the hands of extremists.
"What is going to happen to young Asian men when there has been a bomb gone off somewhere? They are going to be stopped. If they haven't [ID cards] they are going to be detained."
New offences
The Home Office says people will pay £85 for a passport and ID card together or a undecided fee for a separate ID card.
The first cards would be issued in 2008 and when he was introducing the bill, Mr Blunkett suggested Parliament could decide in 2011 or 2012 whether to make it compulsory for everybody to own the cards, although not to carry them.
The new bill will also create new criminal offences on the possession of false identity documents.
And there will be civil penalties including a fine of up to £1,000 fine for people who fail to say they have moved house or changed other details and of up to £2,500 for failing to sign up if the cards become compulsory.
The scheme will be overseen by a new independent watchdog.
Clarke to press on with ID cards
New Home Secretary Charles Clarke has vowed to plough on with plans for ID cards despite a call for him to "pause for thought" from Charles Kennedy.
The Lib Dem leader said David Blunkett's resignation was a "good opportunity" to question whether the legislation was necessary.
But Mr Clarke said he had supported the plans when Mr Blunkett argued for them in Cabinet and he supported them now.
"ID cards are a means to creating a more secure society," he said.
Mr Clarke acknowledged how the measure was introduced remained a matter for debate but he said legislation had already been "significantly influenced" by the recommendations of the Commons' home affairs committee.
Tory backing
The issue would be debated in Parliament next Monday as scheduled he insisted.
Earlier Mr Kennedy, whose party opposes the ID cards plan as "deeply flawed" said with Christmas coming up the new home secretary had time to think again.
He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that Mr Clarke had been reported to be less enthusiastic about ID cards than his predecessors.
"Wouldn't this be a good opportunity for a new home secretary, a new broom, to sweep clean in this respect and why do we need this legislation in the first place?" he asked.
Earlier this week the Tories announced they would back the government's plans although Michael Howard was forced to deny the shadow cabinet was split over its decision.
Margins?
They had decided to support the plans as the police said they would help fight terror, crime and illegal immigration.
Among those reported to have serious reservations over the strategy were senior shadow cabinet members David Davis, Oliver Letwin and Tim Yeo.
The chairman of the Bar Council, Guy Mansfield QC has warned there is a real risk that people on the "margins of society" would be driven into the hands of extremists.
"What is going to happen to young Asian men when there has been a bomb gone off somewhere? They are going to be stopped. If they haven't [ID cards] they are going to be detained."
New offences
The Home Office says people will pay £85 for a passport and ID card together or a undecided fee for a separate ID card.
The first cards would be issued in 2008 and when he was introducing the bill, Mr Blunkett suggested Parliament could decide in 2011 or 2012 whether to make it compulsory for everybody to own the cards, although not to carry them.
The new bill will also create new criminal offences on the possession of false identity documents.
And there will be civil penalties including a fine of up to £1,000 fine for people who fail to say they have moved house or changed other details and of up to £2,500 for failing to sign up if the cards become compulsory.
The scheme will be overseen by a new independent watchdog.
The Wiz said:
The Lib Dem leader said David Blunkett's resignation was a "good opportunity" to question whether the legislation was necessary.
errr wtf? blunkett has resigned? when did this happen? oh bugler, one office party and my standards drop like a chavettes pants on giro day!
>> Edited by minimax on Thursday 16th December 14:12
driller said:
What's wrong with ID cards, unless you are an illegal immigrant or a bank robber? Is this the same as that thread where people would rather be blown up on the tube than have everyone searched? 
Driller
They patently serve no useful purpose, and the gits want to charge us eighty odd quid for the privilege,amongst other things.
einion yrth said:
driller said:
What's wrong with ID cards, unless you are an illegal immigrant or a bank robber? Is this the same as that thread where people would rather be blown up on the tube than have everyone searched?
Driller
They patently serve no useful purpose, and the gits want to charge us eighty odd quid for the privilege,amongst other things.
For once I agree with my brother
. I've lived in several countries where you are obliged to have your identity with you at all times in either card or book form. This also includes your driving licences and insurance details. It's not a problem unless you have something to hide. All this civil liberties stuff is just a load of nonsense. >> Edited by Mon Ami Mate on Thursday 16th December 14:11
How in the hell would an ID card help after a suicide bomb? That seems to be the weapon of choice for the nutters of today. Michael Ryan was identified by his neighbours, not an ID card, as if anyone would have walked up and asked him for it, FFS.
No ID card didn't stop several people charging about in the House of Cockheads recently.
The loonies who would cause the most trouble are the ones who would find ways to stay outside the system, as with the current crop of unlicensed, uninsured twats with untaxed cars.
Meanwhile those of us who are basically law-abiding citizens, will be treated like criminals for minor paperwork infractions... bit like speeding, really.
Mon Ami Mate said:
driller said:
What's wrong with ID cards, unless you are an illegal immigrant or a bank robber? Is this the same as that thread where people would rather be blown up on the tube than have everyone searched?
Driller
They patently serve no useful purpose, and the gits want to charge us eighty odd quid for the privilege,amongst other things.
For once I agree with my brother
>> Edited by Mon Ami Mate on Thursday 16th December 14:11
Why not simply barcode people at birth?
After all ... if you've got nothing to hide ....
Mon Ami Mate said:
driller said:
What's wrong with ID cards, unless you are an illegal immigrant or a bank robber? Is this the same as that thread where people would rather be blown up on the tube than have everyone searched?
Driller
They patently serve no useful purpose, and the gits want to charge us eighty odd quid for the privilege,amongst other things.
For once I agree with my brother
>> Edited by Mon Ami Mate on Thursday 16th December 14:11
Fine, you carry a f
ing card if you like, just leave me out of it.I do believe the only real workable purpose of ID cards is to controll the law abiding population easier and those to stupid or cheap to do much about it.
ID cards didnt and wouldnt have stopped either the US towers disaster nor the spanish train bombings. Non of the terrorists were in the countries either illigaly or under assumed names.
And I also belive that with current plans you have a 3 month leeway to aquire an ID card on entry and a 7 day turn up and show the card producer system as you wont have to carry the card itself.
How is that going to achieve anything - even their ivory tower checklists?
ID cards didnt and wouldnt have stopped either the US towers disaster nor the spanish train bombings. Non of the terrorists were in the countries either illigaly or under assumed names.
And I also belive that with current plans you have a 3 month leeway to aquire an ID card on entry and a 7 day turn up and show the card producer system as you wont have to carry the card itself.
How is that going to achieve anything - even their ivory tower checklists?
driller said:
What's wrong with ID cards, unless you are an illegal immigrant or a bank robber? Is this the same as that thread where people would rather be blown up on the tube than have everyone searched?
Driller
Give me all your personal information then Driller, and tell me that you have nothing to fear from me - and by all I mean all - all your bank details, all your health records, uncluding mental state, details of every visit you have ever made by bus, train or plane, your mortgage account details, records of everything you buy, anywhere, any books you have taken from the library, films you have watched, your marriage details, including any visits to marriage guidance, everything.
Nothing to hide?? Nothing you aren't worried about putting into the public domain for any Tom, Dick or Harry to get hold of??
Rampant Identity theft is just an ID card away...
and before you laugh, my ebay account was hijacked last week, and NO-ONE knows my password
It's not the ID card that is the problem, but the data the government may deem to be necessary to hold on them.
If you trust this Government to stick to its word and not go beyond it, then you're welcome to purchase the ID card.
Me, I don't trust them and I certainly don't trust them to hold the costs down. It was £80.00, but now £100 is being touted and when the Computer system cost start spiralling, so will the purchase costs.
added to that it's the thin edge of the wedge to us becoming a republic and not a democracy.
Piccy
If you trust this Government to stick to its word and not go beyond it, then you're welcome to purchase the ID card.
Me, I don't trust them and I certainly don't trust them to hold the costs down. It was £80.00, but now £100 is being touted and when the Computer system cost start spiralling, so will the purchase costs.
added to that it's the thin edge of the wedge to us becoming a republic and not a democracy.
Piccy
mondeoman said:
driller said:
What's wrong with ID cards, unless you are an illegal immigrant or a bank robber? Is this the same as that thread where people would rather be blown up on the tube than have everyone searched?
Driller
Give me all your personal information then Driller, and tell me that you have nothing to fear from me - and by all I mean all - all your bank details, all your health records, uncluding mental state, details of every visit you have ever made by bus, train or plane, your mortgage account details, records of everything you buy, anywhere, any books you have taken from the library, films you have watched, your marriage details, including any visits to marriage guidance, everything.
Nothing to hide?? Nothing you aren't worried about putting into the public domain for any Tom, Dick or Harry to get hold of??
Rampant Identity theft is just an ID card away...
and before you laugh, my ebay account was hijacked last week, and NO-ONE knows my password
Nobody's suggesting that all this information would be contained on an ID card. Why would it contain your banking details or medical history?
The card would have biometric recognition to prevent it from being cloned or stolen. ID cards would actually combat ID theft - and they would also immediately identify uninsured, unlicenced drivers, illegal immigrants and DSS fraudsters.
>> Edited by Mon Ami Mate on Thursday 16th December 14:26
Mon Ami Mate said:
driller said:
What's wrong with ID cards, unless you are an illegal immigrant or a bank robber? Is this the same as that thread where people would rather be blown up on the tube than have everyone searched?
Driller
Give me all your personal information then Driller, and tell me that you have nothing to fear from me - and by all I mean all - all your bank details, all your health records, uncluding mental state, details of every visit you have ever made by bus, train or plane, your mortgage account details, records of everything you buy, anywhere, any books you have taken from the library, films you have watched, your marriage details, including any visits to marriage guidance, everything.
Nothing to hide?? Nothing you aren't worried about putting into the public domain for any Tom, Dick or Harry to get hold of??
Rampant Identity theft is just an ID card away...
and before you laugh, my ebay account was hijacked last week, and NO-ONE knows my password
Nobody's suggesting that all this information would be contained on an ID card. Why would it contain your banking details or medical history?
The card would have biometric recognition to prevent it from being cloned or stolen.
Ever heard of scope-creep in Government IT projects?
Don't ever believe a politician when he says something is for your own good - you can bet your last penny that he wants to screw you over.
Bloody hell, and I thought I was a paranoid cynic! If the Government wants information on you it can get it now, ID card or no ID card. If the card was likely to have sensitive information on it I'd be against it. I still have my cards from the UAE, Bahrain and Saudi and I still have my old South Africa "Book of life". All these things were ever used for was to officially verify my identity, which was a pain in the arse when I was 16 and wanted to buy beer but very handy when I was stopped by the Police in downtown Dubai and immediately sent on my way when it was established that I had a driving licence and was entitled to be driving the car I was in.
Mon Ami Mate said:
Bloody hell, and I thought I was a paranoid cynic! If the Government wants information on you it can get it now, ID card or no ID card. If the card was likely to have sensitive information on it I'd be against it. I still have my cards from the UAE, Bahrain and Saudi and I still have my old South Africa "Book of life". All these things were ever used for was to officially verify my identity, which was a pain in the arse when I was 16 and wanted to buy beer but very handy when I was stopped by the Police in downtown Dubai and immediately sent on my way when it was established that I had a driving licence and was entitled to be driving the car I was in.
It's not the card per se that is the problem, it is the intrusive and indeed unnecessary database that they intend to bring with it, and further to that the awful record government has with IT projects.
Wow, I've never seen so much paranoia in all my life! You have to carry ID in France and it means for example if you steel a car and get stopped, it's much easier to find out who you are or are not. I don't see how this can be anything other than a tiny inconveniance for the general population and a massive one for the criminal population. I have NEVER understood honest peoples objections to ID cards.
As for having to carry it with you, if you get stopped over here and don't have your car licence, you get an on the spot fine. After the first time you remember to carry your licence. Big deal. No-one complains, it serves a good purpose.
Driller
ps greetings oh Brotherly one
As for having to carry it with you, if you get stopped over here and don't have your car licence, you get an on the spot fine. After the first time you remember to carry your licence. Big deal. No-one complains, it serves a good purpose.
Driller
ps greetings oh Brotherly one
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