Discussion
I stumbled across the artist Tom Sachs, when I made research for a uni project. Now, he made some interesting work, such as the Chanel chainsaw.
I wouldn't call myself an avid admirer of modern art, but his work is very interesting.
Just have a look at movies from his homepage, such as Troubleshooting
more here: www.tomsachs.org
I wouldn't call myself an avid admirer of modern art, but his work is very interesting.
Just have a look at movies from his homepage, such as Troubleshooting
more here: www.tomsachs.org
los angeles said:I guess the picture becomes clear when you see some other work from the same time.
I'm a great fan of modern art....but that looks like a chainsaw.
I'm off to fashion a large bottle of Chanel and stamp it: "Black & Decker."
www.tomsachs.org/art/pradatoilet.html
www.tomsachs.org/art/guillotine.html
http://notesweb.uni-wh.de/wg/wiwi/wgwiwi.nsf/vwFiles/KUK_12b_prada.jpg/$FILE/KUK_12b_Prada_set.jpg
www.deutsche-bank-kunst.com/art/images/94/8.jpg
LA, you're very quick with what not to call "art". How comes?
...with the praa style McD fries....but the rest were objects - they didn't say anything.
My dad has just acquired a Joan Miro for ££££'s but as far as I can see it is money for old rope, the geezer's signature takes up about a page of A4 paper and in the middle is a postcard sized scribble.
OTOH he has a Norman Ackroyd which is brilliant yet is only a black sheet with a rainbow running top to bottom.
OTOH he has a Norman Ackroyd which is brilliant yet is only a black sheet with a rainbow running top to bottom.
What about Meret Oppenheim's Furry Tea Cup?
It may not be everyone's cup of tea though
In some ways this is similar, in that, it challenges our perception of the subject.
Cup = A rigid, smooth, non-porous drinking vessel.
Chanel = Feminine, soft, sensual, attractive non-functional luxury.
The chainsaw is rather too literal for me but I can understand, I hope, the artist's point.
edited to add this...
Man Ray's Iron has a similar theme, though was done many years earlier:
>> Edited by focused on Tuesday 14th December 01:10
It may not be everyone's cup of tea though
In some ways this is similar, in that, it challenges our perception of the subject.
Cup = A rigid, smooth, non-porous drinking vessel.
Chanel = Feminine, soft, sensual, attractive non-functional luxury.
The chainsaw is rather too literal for me but I can understand, I hope, the artist's point.
edited to add this...
Man Ray's Iron has a similar theme, though was done many years earlier:
>> Edited by focused on Tuesday 14th December 01:10
los angeles said:Er yes, it stimulates me. In terms of the falling down syndrome
Does that chainsaw stimulate your imagination, Bodo, or only make you curious to see what else the artist has done?
No, serious, LA; Sachs does a very good job transporting consume critics with his work. It was the controversy of the haute couture label on a rough machine like a chainsaw. I then discovered the Prada death camp and his later work.
There's a nice video of his McDonalds Teaser (warning 7.7MB), which only really works as an installation imho.
I never really found my way to Joseph Beuys; but Sachs moreover shows exceptional handcrafting skills. It's not only above items he made from cardboard, but also his reproduction of Le Corbusier's Unité d'Habitation. Sachs must be a right geek to persevere a work like that picture movie
los angeles said:That's suggesting a rather idealised interpretaition of art, that most "classical" examples of art would fail, unless visual art is to be nothing more than craftsmanship.
It's not really "art," more "installation," - a curent vogue for unmade beds and half sections of dead animals - that is to say, a physical statement of how we can see an everyday common object in a new light or context. True art, art that endures and enriches our lives, runs much deeper than spray painting a chainsaw black.
los angeles said:
It's not really "art," more "installation," - a curent vogue for unmade beds and half sections of dead animals - that is to say, a physical statement of how we can see an everyday common object in a new light or context. True art, art that endures and enriches our lives, runs much deeper than spray painting a chainsaw black.
Your point is interesting. However, would you consider Marcel Duchamp for example, to be in with this 'current vogue'? And when you say enriches 'our' lives, are you talking purely subjectively there? I mean, do you know what enlivens and enriches the lives of others?
los angeles said:
HI, Bodo. I promised to get back to you once I had had more time to look at the work of Tom Sachs that you posted.
Sadly, I am less impressed than before. Everything I've looked at is derivative. For example, the black water closet is a poor reinterpretation of the white soft toilet of Claus Oldenberg. He was an artist who created all sorts of witty sculptures out of plastic and the like. There seems no point to Sachs work and no wit either. If it was a student I was giving a critique to I'd say: okay you've done one, now what? Where do you take this next? In other words, it's a one note, one item idea. The concept has not been vigorously explored or edited.
His chainsaw painted black stamped "Chanel," doesn't actually say anything, let alone anything serious. It might be something Chanel used for one of their Prada window displays or adverts for it has no life, no worth, no significance beyond that.
The superior Picasso example I gave - "Goat" - was created by him as part of a long line of ideas, and way back in the 1940's. He was the first to assemble sculptures from existing, unaltered pieces of metal found lying around. The works of Sachs as illustrated are of no significance. I hope all that helps.
LA
>> Edited by los angeles on Thursday 16th December 04:20
Also, does being derivative detract from its worth, artistically or from a technical point of view. Sure Picasso was a true master, but didn't Braques et al have any artistic merit producing works in the same genre.
Art is IMO opinion the same as music; in art you have the materials, the medium, the context. In music you have harmony, melody, instrumentation and timbre. Just because Buddy Bolden was the first (allegedly) to blow an improvised phrase over 12 bars of a 'blues' (whatever that is supposed to mean) progression, does that mean that subsequent generations of jazz artists are wasting their time because it's already 'been done'?
Providing we're not talking blatant imitation, placing an installation in a new cultural or environmental context will provide some with new meat and drink. And then again, if it is blatant pastiche, is it not ironic or post-modern?
>> Edited by selmer on Thursday 16th December 09:47
Hi LA, thank you for taking the time to research.
Didn't the combination of a chainsaw or the guillotine with an international luxury label raise your suspicion? The combination of 'Prada' with a toilet and a death camp or 'Hermès' with a hand grenade? Nothing to interpret?
los angeles said:That is an interesting claim, LA. Could you please elaborate what Sachs derived from Oldenberg's work?
Everything I've looked at is derivative. For example, the black water closet is a poor reinterpretation of the white soft toilet of Claus Oldenberg. He was an artist who created all sorts of witty sculptures out of plastic and the like.
los angeles said:I'm sure you represent the opinion of the majority of this world's inhabitants on Sachs' work. I bet most people don't see any statement in this.
There seems no point to Sachs work and no wit either. If it was a student I was giving a critique to I'd say: okay you've done one, now what? Where do you take this next? In other words, it's a one note, one item idea. The concept has not been vigorously explored or edited.
His chainsaw painted black stamped "Chanel," doesn't actually say anything, let alone anything serious.
...
The works of Sachs as illustrated are of no significance. I hope all that helps.
Didn't the combination of a chainsaw or the guillotine with an international luxury label raise your suspicion? The combination of 'Prada' with a toilet and a death camp or 'Hermès' with a hand grenade? Nothing to interpret?
los angeles said:LA, do you mean Sachs derived Oldenberg's work because the visible motive is a toilet as well?
Hi LA, thank you for taking the time to research.
You're welcome. It's not every day you get a thread topic on contemporary art on PH! As for Sach and Oldenberg, you need only compare "toilets" to see how one succeeds well and the other follows faintly. LA.
>> Edited by los angeles on Thursday 16th December 17:46
los angeles said:I don't see any relevance or conflict between Oldenberg's and Sachs' loo. It's like two screenplays which contain aliens at some point, but have an entire different plot.
LA, do you mean Sachs derived Oldenberg's work because the visible motive is a toilet as well?
Hi, Bodo. Well, without knowing Sachs I've no idea if he consciously copied Oldenbergs work, but if he considers himself any kind of artist at all he ought to be aware of his art history, and in so doing know what not to copy and what to develop.
If aware of Oldenberg perhaps hedecided to create a negative version of a white toilet bowl, but whether aware of the older artist's work or not, it still renders his work derivative. I mean, if I wrote a movie script about a cuddly wee alien marooned on earth but befriended by a little girl that alone does not make my script original. It makes it highly derivative.
To rest at our example, where do you see Oldenberg's ideas used in Sachs' toilet that make it a derivate?
Gassing Station | The Pie & Piston Archive | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff