Are cars less characterful than they used to be?

[Turbobanana]

I can't believe this day has come, but after 22 years of ownership I am saying goodbye to my Saab Convertible - a sad day.

When I bought it, the Twin Towers were still standing, Tony Blair was PM and petrol was 76.9p / litre.

The truth is, I've kind of fallen out of love with it, and it's going to a lovely guy who I know will enjoy it for years to come. I'm trying to keep myself cheerful by considering what to buy next, but it's presented me with a realisation that cars have got a bit dull. Consider this, PH friends:

In July 2000, I bought a 1991 registered Saab Convertible - so in round figures it was about 10 years old at the time. Apply the same delta to car ages now and I'm looking at cars registered around 2011 / 2012. I paid roughly 30% of the car's new list price when I bought it. Without sounding too camp, what drew me to the car was its sense of glamour: its fabulous-ness, if you will. The X-Factor: you know, the thing that makes you go "wow - look at that".

My question is this: is there anything from around 10 years ago that is available now for about £10-15,000 that has the same effect?

My inclination at the moment is towards something like a 986 Boxster, Lotus Excel, Alfa Spider or Caterham. A disparate bunch, sure, but did you notice that they're all a bit older? Is that a product of increased prices or a lack of characterful newer cars? I can't think of anything newer that I "want".

Thoughts (and condolences) welcome...

[Turbobanana]

Chunkychucky said:

As someone who had the mispleasure of driving a 2 year old Skoda Fabia with a (1.2 litre?) naturally aspirated 3 cylinder lump, i'd have to concur. The throttle pedal seemed to be linked to the throttle body via some string and 2 old cans, the brake pedal did nothing for the first 10% of its travel then tried ejecting you through the windscreen, and generally all the control weights were that overdamped/'stodgy' that driving a Defender 90 would have honestly been more fun.

As the antidote, although somewhat outside of your 10 year criteria, i'd be going for something light/mid-engined, ie. Vauxhall VX220/Lotus Elise/Toyota MR2 (budget dependant). Had a brief drive of a Mk 3 MR2 a couple of months ago and it was the most fun i'd had in a car for a while - not as cheap as they once were, but something I would choose over any of the modern hot/super hatchback brigade as a device for driving.

I'd thought about the MR2 but it would have to be a MkII, as the later ones are about as appealing to me as a No 10 drinks party (even though I know they drive well).

[Turbobanana]

bigandclever said:

Leggy BMW Z4
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202206036...

Box of frogs Lancer EVO X FQ-300
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202202112...

Diesel, but still, Alpina D3
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109247...

BMW 650i convertible
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202206046...

Thanks for the suggestions b&c: the Z4 was another I've looked at - seem good value. 650 is too big (the Saab is very long, filling the length of a standard garage, so something smaller would be great and give me some storage back).

Lancers, Imprezas and 3-Series do nothing for me, I'm afraid.

[Turbobanana]

Om said:

How about a 370Z? it was old when it was new and definitely has the feel of a car from an earlier time (in a good way).

It will also last like the Saab if looked after.

Also, you are right - newer cars are less characterful generally.

350 / 370Z not a bad call, om - hadn't really thought of them.

[Turbobanana]

Sorry for radio silence over the last few hours, but the buyer has just been to collect the Saab so, while sad, I am now in a position to consider options.

Thank you for all the suggestions so far - some really thought-provoking material there. To add a bit: it doesn't have to be a convertible; it does need to be something that could realistically be driven 200 miles if the need arose; I don't believe anything Clarkson says.

I too am coming round to thinking that 20+years old is more likely to be my hunting ground. I haven't completely ruled out a hot hatch (although it would probably need to be 205GTI / late Golf Mk2 vintage) and I haven't completely ruled out something "properly old" either...

[Turbobanana]

Some great replies still, thanks all.

Boxsters intrigue me. I don't need more than a 2.5 because a) I don't believe myself to be Lewis Hamilton, and b) I think they're a bit less prone to the holy trinity of IMS / RMS / bore score than some of the bigger ones. I appreciate their build quality and reliability and, as someone above said, ability to be used every day regardless of the weather. But they're a dull bunch of things when it comes to colours, aren't they? I know there's Speed Yellow and Guards Red (Pink), and I know there's Boxster Red and Nephrite Green interiors, but most seem to be greyblacksilverdarkblue...zzzzzzzzzzzzzz Sorry, I nodded off there for a moment. Coming from a bright yellow Saab, I'd trip over one of those because I wouldn't see it. Same applies to 944s.

In other news: Alfa Brera - nice shout. Volvo / Lexus: no thanks. Worthy, but not really me. Volvo Amazon would be amusing though. MX-5: ticks 99.99% of the boxes but leaves unticked the one that says "Do I want one?". Ditto GT86 / BRZ. I could afford one or two of the 911 / 996s on offer at the moment, but that would empty the contingency fund for running the thing, so they're (reluctantly) out.

Money's in the bank now, so I'll start looking. I know I'm a fussy bugger, and thanks for your suggestions.

[Turbobanana]

Hoofy said:

I've been thinking about this recently.

The problem is that modern cars are so good that they make normal journeys more dull.

My 20 year old car made yesterday's Tesco trip more of an event at normal speeds. I've done the same journey in newer and more comfy cars, and the problem is that it's really boring and makes driving on normal roads in normal traffic feel like the chore that it actually is.

I can't imagine what it must feel like in a brand new E class Merc. So comfy and numb that you actually hate the boredom of it and even listening to a podcast or audiobook isn't enough.

This is all true Hoofy, and I have a 4 year old E Class to prove it. It's a lovely waft, but about as involving as Jeremy Clarkson conducting an opinion poll.

Mrs Banana* is trying to lobby for something with 4 seats so the kids can enjoy it too, despite the Saab never really having had its rear seats bothered in the last 22 years. Must resist... although the restomod angle mentioned above is interesting.










* Do I have to change my user name now I don't own a yellow, turbocharged Saab?

[Turbobanana]

mk1coopers said:

It is a soft top, but what about a 6 series, unloved looks in their day but not so much now, it would tick most of the boxes.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202206086...

Thanks Mk1, I appreciate the thought but that looks like it was designed by a 3 year old given a pencil and told to draw a car.

Also it's too big for my garage.

[Turbobanana]

PomBstard said:

Was in a similar’ish sort of position when looking earlier this year. Needed something fun to drive, a bit practical (2+2), and different. Now, it seems that my ‘thing’ is transaxle Porsches, but amongst a plethora of alternatives I also considered a few hot hatches and kept looking at Integra Type Rs…

They’re a bit focussed but quite fun. And they come in Yellow…




Turbobanana becomes VTECyobanana

Otherwise I’d also recommend browsing the ads at the back of one of the classic car mags and seeing what takes your eye.

Thanks PB, made me chuckle. I remember your travails after the 928 bit the dust. At least my pain is of my own making.

944S2 is a possibility, if I can find one that hasn't rusted yet.

[Turbobanana]

coppice said:

I started reading car magazines in 1967 and people have been bemoaning the good old days as long as I've been a car enthusiast. What changes more than the car is the person, who conflates the halcyon days of their youth with a glut of interesting cars on every street . But 'twas never thus - much as I still admire the Elans , Dinos and RS 2000s of my youth there was just as much grey porridge on the road then as there is now.

It speaks for the average age of the PH demographic that there is so much soft focus love for the Nineties - but that is just down to late thirty and forty somethings encountering their first brush of nostalgia. In thirty years time forty and fifty somethings will gush about the amazing machinery you could drive as the ICE car enjoyed its final drink in the last chance saloon , believe it .

Eloquent as ever, coppice, and quite true. I wonder whether I ought to have called the topic "Are new cars too good?" because I think it's the efficiency and lack of demand for attention that makes them characterless, in the eyes of us older folk anyway.

[Turbobanana]

QBee said:

Not sure I can help you.

My daily is either a 2002 Saab 9-5 estate (I have dogs) or a 2005 mark 1 Nissan X Trail (I tow stuff and have dogs).
Both are too comfortable and capable to be special enough, and cost too little to suit your budget.

My something special is:



22 years old, 4.6 litres of hoot to drive, cheap tax and insurance and a great owners club/following.

You're doing it right, QBee. I could get on board with a TVR S2.

DodgyGeezer said:

SLK of some flavour
C5 Corvette
Fiat 124
370Z (if you can live with the light design)
S197 Mustang
TT

Would love any of those except the TT. 'Vette and 'Stang too big for the crappy garage.

I'm sort of chasing a Boxster at the moment, but it's Guards Red which I fear will become Guards Pink at some point.

[Turbobanana]

FHCNICK said:

Any update on this, will you have to change your username?

Glad you asked!

I've been dithering a lot and have been away for a few weeks on holiday, so I let it slide a bit.

Went to have a look at a Boxster, which was cheap but turned out to need just about every panel painting and a new engine cover and front bumper. Plus the interior looked like someone had had an accident in it (of the bowel-emptying variety). Ruled out 924 / 944 after I saw the cost of the inevitable, sooner-or-later sill replacement.

Missed out on a couple of Triumph GT6s, mostly down to my own unwillingness to take time out from work to go look at something. Nearly bought a TVR S2 but the vendor refused to MoT the car, and I wasn't willing to risk it knowing their propensity for chassis outrigger disintegration. Regret that a bit.

Seen a couple of Z3s, facelift models: anyone got any experience of them? They look good value at £5-6,000 with the 2.2 / 2.8 engines. A little unsure of the looks, mind, but you can occasionally find "fun" colours like Dakar Yellow / Fiji Green, which I like. I can't stand the first (Bangle-era) Z4, but the later, 2009-on ones look good, if a bit boring, and some of those have fun coloured interiors.

I still occasionally think of Elan M100s in turbo SE guise: small enough to fit the garage, reliable(ish) Japanese oily parts and a bit unusual. FWD is offputting, but it shouldn't be after the Saab. What would I call myself if I bought one: TurboCalypsoRed? TurboNorfolkMustard? TurboBRG?

[Turbobanana]

Well, a thing happened...

After dithering seemingly forever, I stuck a bid on an eBay listing - more in hope than expectation. It was about £1000 below my "real" maximum budget and I didn't think for a minute I'd be successful. I wasn't even online when the auction ended, so I was surprised to discover that my bid was the highest of the 21 the seller received, yet was still £600 less than my maximum bid: I'd won a car!

The seller was contacted and a deposit paid. He admitted he'd cocked up and opted for "best bid" rather than "reserve" but was honourable and said he'd go through with the sale.

I dodged the rail strikes and set off after work yesterday. Car collected, balance paid, licence (free) acquired and I set off for the 90-mile drive home. In a car the size of a go-kart that I'd never seen. On roads I didn't know. With zero fuel in the tank. In pouring rain signifying the start of the much-anticipated British monsoon season. What could possibly go wrong?

Long (and wet) story short: I eventually arrived home just before 10pm after enduring the toughest journey I've ever experienced in 35 years of driving. And the best part? The Prince of Darkness saved his inevitable visit until I was literally a mile from home, meaning the portion of the journey spent without lights, wipers or gauges was mercifully short.*

A new 35A fuse this morning and we're into our first commute to work - at least until it blows again, probably on the way home.

Here's my new acquisition in the work car park, absolutely dwarfed by the behemoth that is a Vauxhall Corsa:



Updates to follow - possibly a Readers' Cars thread if anyone's interested?

* Apologies to all the traffic I held up / pissed off in heavy rain past Willen Lake, Milton Keynes last night.

[Turbobanana]

Thanks for the good wishes, chaps. To be honest I was really impressed with how it handled the atrocious conditions last night. In truth I should have trailered it / had it recovered, but where's the fun in that? It's what AA Recovery was invented for, right?

The seller admitted he'd lost a shed load of money on it but just wanted it gone. I'm confident I could make a profit if I flipped it tomorrow, but I've wanted one since I was about 8 and saw one outside the village shop.

Cabin heat was quite intense, yes, especially on a warm, wet night, but I had the quarterlights and rear windows open for ventilation so I only got slightly wet.

I was so wrapped up in getting it home I didn't even notice the keyring until just now:

[Turbobanana]

TarquinMX5 said:

Congratulations; I've always liked the GT6 from way-back-when but have never owned one, or even been in one for that matter. I appreciate that they were never 'big' cars but it's still surprising how small they look alongside something like a Corsa.

I'm 6'1" and "generously" built: it was a genuine concern whether I'd actually fit in the thing. Turns out it's really comfortable, although entry / egress could be more elegant...

[Turbobanana]

spoodler said:

Love the keyring.
Trans' tunnel heat in mine was so intense that I'd really struggle in summer traffic, my left leg would be too hot to keep on the clutch. Nowadays, I know enough to make sure the tunnel is properly bolted down and properly insulated. I had a similar problem with my current old Chevyvan, I've lined the doghouse with tin foil bubble wrap type insulation and it has made a huge difference.

Thanks spoodler - good info there. Is there any negative effect on the gearbox having heat reflected back at it by foil?

[Turbobanana]

Yertis said:

What year is it? Looks like it might be late one.

1971 K, currently on awful slot mags but with a set of 5.5J steels to go on once refurbished, which should go some way to improving the aesthetics.

Colour is not original and the respray is questionable.

[Turbobanana]

Yertis said:

Turbobanana said:

Yertis said:

What year is it? Looks like it might be late one.

1971 K, currently on awful slot mags but with a set of 5.5J steels to go on once refurbished, which should go some way to improving the aesthetics.

Colour is not original and the respray is questionable.

The 5.5Js really help the look of the GT6, especially with a decent profile tyre. I think I was running 175/70 Goodyear NCT2s, good combo of width and sidewall. More pics please – I'm motivated to get my own GT6 project rolling again...

Thanks Yertis, good intel.

Turns out I have 3 x 5.5J (inc the spare) and 2 x 5.0J, so I will trawl eBay for a pair and sell the smaller two, as well as the slot mags. I really want it on the steels as it will look so much better, although the slot mags are immaculate and the tyres literally brand new (albeit Nexens).

My kids have been away all week and just saw it for the first time - they love it!

[Turbobanana]

Little update, prior to starting a proper Readers' Cars thread:

I've been really busy, so time for the little GT6 has been limited. I did manage to order some bits: wiper blades (the correct, bright finish - I can't stand the black ones on older cars), a voltage stabiliser (see below), some 35amp fuses (see below) and some generally useful bits like stainless steel nuts & bolts (see below).

You'll probably recall my visit from the Prince of Darkness at the end of my epic journey home. I replaced the blown fuse (one of just 3 in a GT6 fusebox) but on my maiden commute the morning after purchase it just blew again immediately. Researching t'internet suggested the voltage stabiliser would be a good place to start. Let's just say that replacing it was "tricky" due to Triumph's decision to place this on the back of the speedo. Anyway, got that done last night (eventually) and upon starting all the gauges and lights affected appeared to work, but engaging and disengaging the overdrive resulted in an electric shock from the gearlever - bizarre!

More internet research suggested the wiring for the overdrive is another weak spot, running up inside the gearlever to the switch mounted on the knob (ooh, err etc). Triumph saw fit to insulate this wiring using varnish, which eventually wears out and shorts the whole thing. If you're touching the bare metal spokes of the steering wheel while this happens, it can be quite a jolt apparently

So, I've ordered a new knob (stop sniggering at the back!), wiring and switch, figuring if I need to replace it all I may as well make it look nice.

Awaiting arrival of all this, but won't have a chance to fix it until next week unfortunately.

The bonnet catch on the left appeared to be loose, and proved to be held in by one self-tapper. Now has 3 stainless steel nuts & bolts doing the job properly.

Sorry there's no slightly blurry pictures of the oily bits like these things normally attract, but I don't think you need to see them. I'll save the pics for when it's all running and can be driven somewhere that isn't my garage.

V5 arrived too, so I can put my plate on it now

[Turbobanana]

Yertis said:

I changed my voltage stabiliser week before last. Fiddly job isn't it. Stupid Triumph putting it there. Also had that same problem with the overdrive wiring breaking in the stick (on the way to a David Lee Roth gig in my case). One other wiring thing I strongly advise you check carefully is the plastic unit that takes the wiring through the bulkhead. Actually that is the fusebox isn't it. In my case it became unclipped from the bulkhead, and he bulkhead quickly sawed its way through the big fat brown ignition live wire, to cause smoke and exasperation in the cabin. So check that it's securely clipped in place.

Amazing that this GT6 stuff is all so fresh 30 years later. Loved that car, and vicariously enjoying yours

Thanks Yertis, great knowledge again there. I'll be back in the garage next week so I'll check the extensive(!) fuse box when I do.

Future projects include retrimming the seats (well, rebuilding the seats) and re-veneering the dash. Watched a few videos of the latter and some of the results are astonishing. Also need to get some grommets into the bulkhead: my aquatic experience on the drive home has soaked the footwell carpets, which I didn't notice until last night.

Also, I removed the radio / CD player: it was modern, and looked crap in the dash. I'm no fan of radios in cars anyway.