Any Stag owners? - reality check needed
Discussion
Hi, The Triumph Stag has been my dream classic for the last 20 years.
Last summer I bought an MX5 as a second car. I considered it a much more practical purchase all round than the MGB GT/TR7 FHC that I initially set out to buy.
Much as I like the 5, a Stag is now possible as values seem to have come down a bit - no doubt due to rising fuel costs.
I'm aware of the issues surrounding the cooling system, timing chains and tensioners etc and don't expect to get more than low 20s mpg. From what I've read over the years terminal rust doesn't seem to be problem with these cars.
As a second car I'd be using it at weekends etc and occasionally for my 30 mile motorway commute on dry summer days.
Am I mad to consider chopping in my excellent, reliable MX5 for a thirstier, more expensive potential money pit?
Thoughts please.
Last summer I bought an MX5 as a second car. I considered it a much more practical purchase all round than the MGB GT/TR7 FHC that I initially set out to buy.
Much as I like the 5, a Stag is now possible as values seem to have come down a bit - no doubt due to rising fuel costs.
I'm aware of the issues surrounding the cooling system, timing chains and tensioners etc and don't expect to get more than low 20s mpg. From what I've read over the years terminal rust doesn't seem to be problem with these cars.
As a second car I'd be using it at weekends etc and occasionally for my 30 mile motorway commute on dry summer days.
Am I mad to consider chopping in my excellent, reliable MX5 for a thirstier, more expensive potential money pit?
Thoughts please.
that really depends on weather you like to tinker with old cars. An old stag will take more looking after than an MX5. also I tend to find classics are sold when they have not been used for a while, this will cause problems when you start to run them more often. It often takes 6 months or so to get them reliable. this is fine if you like to tinker but a pain if you want to drive them rather than fix them.
go for it a stag should be a wonderful car to own. I always had one on my list but never owned one due to the cost of them.
go for it a stag should be a wonderful car to own. I always had one on my list but never owned one due to the cost of them.
Do factor in the convenience of the MX5, and the likelihood in that the reality of owning a Stag may not live up to your expectaions. But On the other hand, it may well exceed them....
I would imagine the MX5 to be a lot nippier, much smoother and far better built. In contrast the Stag would be thirsty, slower, noisier (V8 so not a bad thing!) but overall more of a chore to drive - but then its not your main car is it.
I'd advise you to certainly take a long drive in one before deciding. Gorgeous looking cars - but I think you'll be suprised at how old they actually "feel"
I would imagine the MX5 to be a lot nippier, much smoother and far better built. In contrast the Stag would be thirsty, slower, noisier (V8 so not a bad thing!) but overall more of a chore to drive - but then its not your main car is it.
I'd advise you to certainly take a long drive in one before deciding. Gorgeous looking cars - but I think you'll be suprised at how old they actually "feel"
ARH said:
also I tend to find classics are sold when they have not been used for a while, this will cause problems when you start to run them more often. It often takes 6 months or so to get them reliable. this is fine if you like to tinker but a pain if you want to drive them rather than fix them.
a very good point, I'd say more like 9-12 months and if you don't use the car regularly you'll add to the problems rather than iron them outI'd thing unlimted milage insurance would be easy for you so regular use would be no problem
to find out what they're like to drive you could hire one for a day
to find out what they're like to own you could buy an owners Handbook (it may also have also have the full and proper servicing and maintaience shedule which will be a lot more than just engine oil changes)
My advice to new or potential owners -
Buy an owners Handbook as it usually tells you so much you need to know as to own, drive, service and maintain your car
Look at and test drive as many good examples as you can including some well out of your buying budget to see how good the cars should be and that you may need to increase your budget
It usually works out less expensive to buy a good but higher priced example than a poor lower priced example
If you buy one then;
always have the battery in good condition and all battery connections and leads clean, secure and protected, same for all electrical wiring and connections
As soon as possible do a full and proper 36,000 miles service only miss out items that you have 100% proof have already been done very recently, including;
g/box and back axle oils
brake and clutch fluids
coolant
dissy cap, rotor arm and leads (buy good quality ones) - http://www.distributordoctor.com/rotor_arms.html
fan belt
Be aware that brand new parts can sometimes be faulty, especially electrical bits (see just above) so don’t discount them when problem solving just because they are new, buy good quality parts
Change rubber coolant hoses to silicone when you get the chance as new rubber ones tend to be poor quality now - http://www.classicsiliconehoses.com/
Check the age of your tyres if they are 6 years old or more replace ASAP regardless of tread depth, this will improve, the braking, steering, ride, handling and possibly noise, of the car greatly
Use the car regularly - to get used to it, sort out any wrinkles and prevent the problems that occur with lack of use, and to enjoy it
Every few weeks check your horn, wipers and all switches work and heater valve turns on and off (all no problem if you use the car regularly)
Follow regular checks, servicing and maintenance as per owners Handbook
Drive in all weathers to fully get used to the car and fully test it out
Do not do any cosmetic or improvement work for at least 12 months of regular use, unless you need to replace parts or components, as you may need to use the money elsewhere on the car
Also very useful suppliers parts catalogues for free to get you started to see where things go
Cheers, enjoy your car
I have to agree with all the above. It took me nearly 5 months to get my vitesse running properly. And I still have a suspension rebuild to do, springs are ok but all the bushes are on their last legs. never under estimate how much work it will take to sort all this stuff out. 10 years ago when we bought the morris minor, it was winning trophies at shows. it had only cover 200 miles a year for 6 years. Within 150 miles the dynamo had completly failed, the fuel pump packed up, the brakes needed a complete rebuild. the cylinder head burnt a valve, and all this after a thorough service. last year it covered 4000 miles and needed a £3 suspension bush, £20 for a service and sailed through the mot. Mind it wont win any show trophies now. Old cars can be used as they were intended but will take a lot more serviceing than a modern car.
I agree. My Interceptor won prizes in the 80s and 90s, but rarely did more than 1000 miles a year. In the last year I have driven it 10,000 miles, and have had to spend quite a lot to keep it running, although the engine and gearbox have not been problematic - the money has been spent on things like electrics, starter, and cooling system. It wouldn't win prizes now, but runs well most of the time.
ARH said:
I have to agree with all the above. It took me nearly 5 months to get my vitesse running properly. And I still have a suspension rebuild to do, springs are ok but all the bushes are on their last legs. never under estimate how much work it will take to sort all this stuff out. 10 years ago when we bought the morris minor, it was winning trophies at shows. it had only cover 200 miles a year for 6 years. Within 150 miles the dynamo had completly failed, the fuel pump packed up, the brakes needed a complete rebuild. the cylinder head burnt a valve, and all this after a thorough service. last year it covered 4000 miles and needed a £3 suspension bush, £20 for a service and sailed through the mot. Mind it wont win any show trophies now. Old cars can be used as they were intended but will take a lot more serviceing than a modern car.
A bit of mutaual agreement, I'm not used to that, from either directionThank you ARH for your agreement and I agree with what you've put
I'd say classics need a lot more looking after initially but this decrees with regular use and full and proper servicing and maintainence, plus some components as they need replacing can be upgraded/modernised (if the owner wants) to ones that don't need servicing - but certainly an old car will still need more servicing than a modern
I'll stress a good battery and connections will save no end of unecessary messing around and poor quality replacement parts will give no end of unecessary messing around
One thing I forgot is to ask advice from owmers that actually use the car and I don't mean one two week holiday of 2,000 miles then only around or less than another 1,000 miles in the remaining 351 days of a year
The owners in classic car Owners clubs I've not always found to be of much help as most have little idea of their cars capabilities or know how to drive or maintain them properly or fully as they so rarely drive them
I was asked to lead a local group of Stag owners to a show event (they went in, we went touring and to find a pub), at the start I said I wasn't going too fast as I was in my Rover P6 3500S and felt a bit of a stranger and didn't want to hold the group up, I took them on a great 60 mph B road and kept to around 50-60 mph but had to stop twice for the back, and front, of the group to catch up they had no idea how to drive their cars or what they were capable of
I have never seen an MGB on a motorway that was not in the inside lane. All of my classic cars (save for my old Landy, which i would be too terrified to take on a motorway, even assuming it could make it out of Norfolk to find one) have been driven at modern traffic speed (I don't just mean 8 mph in London).
I'm very often on the inside lane no matter what car I drive but that doesn't mean I haven't used the other two lanes - a B certainly (especialy with overdrive) should be using all three lanes if necessary, a Midget with standrad gearbox may spend more time out of the third lane as over a very long journey it can be tiring, and use a lot of petrol - that's why I've got a 5th gear on mine 
Thanks for all the replies - plenty to think about.
One of the reasons I'm now re-considering a classic is because there isn't that much to tinker with on my MX5.
My only concern is reliability. I have a 30 mile motorway commute that I'd use the car for occasionally and I need to be at work on time.
One of the reasons I'm now re-considering a classic is because there isn't that much to tinker with on my MX5.
My only concern is reliability. I have a 30 mile motorway commute that I'd use the car for occasionally and I need to be at work on time.
I would say that with any classic car breakdown is not a case of if but when, but I also agree that, if regularly used, old machines can be quite dependable, and they seem to work better if used often, much like light aeroplanes. I drove 3,300 miles around Europe in a forty year old gas guzzler last summer. The windscreen wipers stopped working, and the ignition switch needed jury rigging be a Gitane smoking mec in Paris on the last night of the trip, but otherwise the car went well. A well sorted Stag is a lovely car, and if you have dreamt of owning one, then I would say go for it. Be choosy and don't necessarily buy the first one that you see. Be prepared to spend an extra ten minutes at petrol stops talking to people about the car, and allowing people to photograph it, sit in it etc. Also be prepared to be let out at junctions, allowed to change lanes etc. There are many upsides to driving a classic jalopy.
PlayersNo6 said:
My only concern is reliability. I have a 30 mile motorway commute that I'd use the car for occasionally and I need to be at work on time.
as said, a regularly used car by you and/or the previous owner will be less likely to breakdownyou need to regularly use the car and iron out the wrinkles before you can safely say that it wont breakdown, so that means weekends, holidays, before and after work the more you use it the quicker it will become reliable because you're keeping all compoments working and those that don't or stop you'll find out about
Full and proper servicing and maintenance is vital to ensure reliabilty as is regular use
Some people think an oil change once in a while is a service
An MOT just states the car meet a MINIMUM standard on that day at that time it doesn't mean the car runs well or is reliable
Personally I change to electronic ignition as soon as possible, some cheap units can possibly be troublesome though so if you can consider a 123 dissy but don't forget about service items like rotor, dissy, HT leads
I used to do a 100 mile commute to work in some of my classics (sometimes my V8 B roadster) and another time use them for work during the day, only time I didn't make work was when a petrol pump packed up my fault though as I should have changed it straight away instead of hitting it to get it to work until the next weekend
Most classics are urealiable simply because they have the wrong owner, some think it's fun to always fiddle and never repair or replace
See my advice post above, buy the owners Handbook (other provides available) - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Triumph-Stag-Official-Owne...
and thorough read it and study the servicing scedule
Think about hiring a Stag for a day, chances are it will be a good example but not without small faults, don't worry about very shiny show car and IMO avoid wire wheels
Do more reasearch (not off the pub experts though)
ETA: oh, and let us know how you get on - a lot of these threads can be from the unprepared or just dreamers, I think you're just at the moment a litte unprepared - hint, owners Handbook and hire or test drives
Edited by na on Tuesday 3rd May 17:35
oh just thought - a thermostaically controlled electric cooling fan can be useful (but not essential) it should be wired and fused independantly, no need for override switch or warning light IMO if the cooling systems has been serviced correctly
And there's no need to fit this until you've cleaned and refilled the cooling system - that not just emptying it out and filling
- it's empty, flush, back, flush, clean, flush, back flush and flush again until the water runs clear
and it means the engine, both sides, the radiator and heater matrix and heater valve, if you can get any of these out to give them a good shake at the same time as flushing and back flushing then all the better
when refilling you could added something like wetter Water to the correct coolant mixture, tap water not usually the best to use either, or if your engine is recondtioned and in good condition then I prefer 4-LIFE - http://www.holden.co.uk/displayproduct.asp?pCode=0...
a full flush/back flush is especially imporant for low milage/little use cars as it could be that it's only the crud stopping the leaks or worst clogging the system and making it ineffecient (and over heat)
Any decent Stag by now 40 years later should have no overheating problems anyway
And there's no need to fit this until you've cleaned and refilled the cooling system - that not just emptying it out and filling
- it's empty, flush, back, flush, clean, flush, back flush and flush again until the water runs clear
and it means the engine, both sides, the radiator and heater matrix and heater valve, if you can get any of these out to give them a good shake at the same time as flushing and back flushing then all the better
when refilling you could added something like wetter Water to the correct coolant mixture, tap water not usually the best to use either, or if your engine is recondtioned and in good condition then I prefer 4-LIFE - http://www.holden.co.uk/displayproduct.asp?pCode=0...
a full flush/back flush is especially imporant for low milage/little use cars as it could be that it's only the crud stopping the leaks or worst clogging the system and making it ineffecient (and over heat)
Any decent Stag by now 40 years later should have no overheating problems anyway
There is truth in na's words, for all aspiring classic car owners to read.
In principle old cars should be every bit as reliable as new ones, provided they were of sound design and reliable in the first place. I think classic cars should be treated a bit more like aeroplanes, with some components replaced on a life-expired basis rather than fitted forever until they break.
When I rebuilt my TR6 I took the view that there were some components ie plumbing, wiring loom and all the electrical bits, hydraulics, cooling, bearing components like bushes and so on that, though apparently serviceable and working, were life expired. These I replaced with new, and where possible uprated, components. As a consequence the TR has been extremely reliable, and whilst it's gone off-tune now and again (Lucas PI
) it's never failed to get me there and back again, even with much less frequent use than I'd intended.
In principle old cars should be every bit as reliable as new ones, provided they were of sound design and reliable in the first place. I think classic cars should be treated a bit more like aeroplanes, with some components replaced on a life-expired basis rather than fitted forever until they break.
When I rebuilt my TR6 I took the view that there were some components ie plumbing, wiring loom and all the electrical bits, hydraulics, cooling, bearing components like bushes and so on that, though apparently serviceable and working, were life expired. These I replaced with new, and where possible uprated, components. As a consequence the TR has been extremely reliable, and whilst it's gone off-tune now and again (Lucas PI
) it's never failed to get me there and back again, even with much less frequent use than I'd intended.I can't comment on a Stag as I haven't owned one but I got a TR6 earlier this year and have no regrets.
Yes it's not as economical as an MX5 or as well engineered but every drive is an occasion. I've done about 3000 miles in just over 2 months and it not broken down. Even when (if) it does, nothing is expensive or hard to replace.
It keeps up with modern traffic, never overheats or is anything other than a lovely old car.
It's incredible that the UK used to produce such great fun cars that were so cheap to buy when new. Even now £10-£12K buys you a presentable one.
I've had a number of "classics" before so knew what I was letting myself in for.
Ergonomics are last century (lierally). Enginieering is agricultural but effective.
The car has probably appreciated in value in the time I've had it and the main thing is you feel like you are enjoying driving and care nothing about the fuel you are putting in as every penny feels worth it.
You are treated by other road users as if you are driving something exotic and you given respect that you wouldn't get if you were driving a supercar.
Buy carefully and your Stag can cost very little as the depreciation will be so low. If you are not doing many miles - are you bothered if you are only getting low 20s.
Get it out of your system and if you don't like it - you will easily sell it.
Yes it's not as economical as an MX5 or as well engineered but every drive is an occasion. I've done about 3000 miles in just over 2 months and it not broken down. Even when (if) it does, nothing is expensive or hard to replace.
It keeps up with modern traffic, never overheats or is anything other than a lovely old car.
It's incredible that the UK used to produce such great fun cars that were so cheap to buy when new. Even now £10-£12K buys you a presentable one.
I've had a number of "classics" before so knew what I was letting myself in for.
Ergonomics are last century (lierally). Enginieering is agricultural but effective.
The car has probably appreciated in value in the time I've had it and the main thing is you feel like you are enjoying driving and care nothing about the fuel you are putting in as every penny feels worth it.
You are treated by other road users as if you are driving something exotic and you given respect that you wouldn't get if you were driving a supercar.
Buy carefully and your Stag can cost very little as the depreciation will be so low. If you are not doing many miles - are you bothered if you are only getting low 20s.
Get it out of your system and if you don't like it - you will easily sell it.
I'm on my second Stag, so the below is all IMHO but with some hard won (read: expensive) experience.
The cooling system as designed is perfectly capable if it's in good condition (which does mean clean, see above about flushing). There are faults with the system but none of those are fixed by fitting additional fans or larger radiators. It's not the capacity of the system which is at fault, it's the general design of it. Basically, if you get a leak the water pump will be starved and the car will overheat. Then the HG will blow. Because of the location of the expansion tank there is no reservoir of coolant, and it's even difficult to check the level so any slight leak causes big problems (i.e. HGF) very quickly. Being an OHC V8, with alloy heads and due to the way the studs are and corrosion it's a real pig (i.e. £1,500) to fix head gasket issues. I believe the factory book say 20 hours of labour. Per head. Bare that in mind when buying. I don't know how to tell if an engine will go soon or not.
I have got 30mpg on a motorway run, and get 25+mpg during mixed driving.
You mention values. When I was looking 18 months ago I was looking for a car for about £5/£6k. I went to look at 5 and they were all dogs. 2 were generally OK but very tatty, one was very rusty (it sold on ebay for £8k!) and one had poor paint and a blown engine (HGF I think). I was happy to find mine for £5.5k but even so it's needed about £1,500 in parts (clutch, wheels, brakes, some electrics, carpets, door trims etc etc), £300 in welding and a lot of time to put anywhere near right. The last valuation on it was £7k. A friend sold a quite solid car with a sick engine for £7k recently.
They don't seem any better or worse then other cars of the era for rust, however you can see it all pretty easily so rusty ones are easy to spot.
I have never driven an MX5 but Stag's are pretty easy to drive. It's comfortable (I'm over 6 foot), you are reasonably high up, they have a nice responsive engine, fairly safe handling and generally feel very modern to drive. The soft top is rubbish. It's difficult to put down and noisy above about 55mph. It also restricts rear 3/4 visibility. It is, however, water/wind proof. The hard top transforms the car; it's then as quiet/weather proof as a modern (well, nearly...you can still hear the engine!). The heating and ventilation are very good, as are the brakes (servo assisted discs/drums).
If you would like some advice...
Check for rust. Now check again. Now poke the sills and floor, check for bubbling around the windscreen pillars and the wheel arch lips.
Drive a few. I've driven, I guess, 10 Stag's now and the faults some people put up with because "it's an old car" are unbelievable. Stag's accelerate with authority, track straight, stop convincingly and are stable through corners. The steering is a bit over light, and they can 'jink' if you cut the power on a corner (but even then it's much worse on some cars then others).
Go for a manual with O/D if you want to enjoy driving it. The autos are fine in their own way but I don't think anyone on here would argue if I said they are not a drivers car. Even the manual O/D car isn't that fast (probably about the same as your MX5) so the extra bit the auto knocks off is noticeable. You'll also get better fuel economy.
A new soft top or a hard top restoration will cost the same, about £1,000. Also expensive are bumpers (£350+ each) and door cards (I forget, it's a lot). A new engine is £2k plus.
Any questions feel free to ask. If you are close by I am at the Ace Cafe classic cars night most months (second Tuesday) and am happy to let you have a look at/sit in/poke about my car. Let me know though as I don't take the Stag every month.
ETA: I see you also have a Daimler Sovereign series 1 on your fantasy garage. Obviously a man of taste. The offer above also applies to that (although mine is a humble Jaguar), if you want (although I can't get both cars there on the same night!). I would say S1 XJ6's are getting on for half the cost of a Stag, although good ones are very rare. It took me about 6 months to find mine, they seem to rust horribly.
The cooling system as designed is perfectly capable if it's in good condition (which does mean clean, see above about flushing). There are faults with the system but none of those are fixed by fitting additional fans or larger radiators. It's not the capacity of the system which is at fault, it's the general design of it. Basically, if you get a leak the water pump will be starved and the car will overheat. Then the HG will blow. Because of the location of the expansion tank there is no reservoir of coolant, and it's even difficult to check the level so any slight leak causes big problems (i.e. HGF) very quickly. Being an OHC V8, with alloy heads and due to the way the studs are and corrosion it's a real pig (i.e. £1,500) to fix head gasket issues. I believe the factory book say 20 hours of labour. Per head. Bare that in mind when buying. I don't know how to tell if an engine will go soon or not.
I have got 30mpg on a motorway run, and get 25+mpg during mixed driving.
You mention values. When I was looking 18 months ago I was looking for a car for about £5/£6k. I went to look at 5 and they were all dogs. 2 were generally OK but very tatty, one was very rusty (it sold on ebay for £8k!) and one had poor paint and a blown engine (HGF I think). I was happy to find mine for £5.5k but even so it's needed about £1,500 in parts (clutch, wheels, brakes, some electrics, carpets, door trims etc etc), £300 in welding and a lot of time to put anywhere near right. The last valuation on it was £7k. A friend sold a quite solid car with a sick engine for £7k recently.
They don't seem any better or worse then other cars of the era for rust, however you can see it all pretty easily so rusty ones are easy to spot.
I have never driven an MX5 but Stag's are pretty easy to drive. It's comfortable (I'm over 6 foot), you are reasonably high up, they have a nice responsive engine, fairly safe handling and generally feel very modern to drive. The soft top is rubbish. It's difficult to put down and noisy above about 55mph. It also restricts rear 3/4 visibility. It is, however, water/wind proof. The hard top transforms the car; it's then as quiet/weather proof as a modern (well, nearly...you can still hear the engine!). The heating and ventilation are very good, as are the brakes (servo assisted discs/drums).
If you would like some advice...
Check for rust. Now check again. Now poke the sills and floor, check for bubbling around the windscreen pillars and the wheel arch lips.
Drive a few. I've driven, I guess, 10 Stag's now and the faults some people put up with because "it's an old car" are unbelievable. Stag's accelerate with authority, track straight, stop convincingly and are stable through corners. The steering is a bit over light, and they can 'jink' if you cut the power on a corner (but even then it's much worse on some cars then others).
Go for a manual with O/D if you want to enjoy driving it. The autos are fine in their own way but I don't think anyone on here would argue if I said they are not a drivers car. Even the manual O/D car isn't that fast (probably about the same as your MX5) so the extra bit the auto knocks off is noticeable. You'll also get better fuel economy.
A new soft top or a hard top restoration will cost the same, about £1,000. Also expensive are bumpers (£350+ each) and door cards (I forget, it's a lot). A new engine is £2k plus.
Any questions feel free to ask. If you are close by I am at the Ace Cafe classic cars night most months (second Tuesday) and am happy to let you have a look at/sit in/poke about my car. Let me know though as I don't take the Stag every month.
ETA: I see you also have a Daimler Sovereign series 1 on your fantasy garage. Obviously a man of taste. The offer above also applies to that (although mine is a humble Jaguar), if you want (although I can't get both cars there on the same night!). I would say S1 XJ6's are getting on for half the cost of a Stag, although good ones are very rare. It took me about 6 months to find mine, they seem to rust horribly.
Edited by varsas on Tuesday 3rd May 19:23
Blimey more agreement - with me !
thanks Yertis, I operate a similar system whereby I record all the stuff I replace the bits I've already replaced as sutable intervals, many of these parts, fluids and componets are covered under the full and proper servicing shedule but other are not and should be
I'm always ware of the low depreciation bit so as not to encourage those that think they can buy a classic done nothing to it (like servicing) not derive it that often then sell it a year or two later expecting "a profit" or2not to have lost much" as these are the cars thathe new enthusiast then has to sort out
whilst the Stag will use more petrol than the MX-5 the MX-5 is resonable thirsty compared to a modern family car
And of course it's the not doing many miles that can create or extend problems
The OP by his car history and general feel seems to me like he ought to seriuosly consider getting a Stag but a lot of potential classic car owners would probably do themselves and the car they'd buy no favours if they did take up ownership, not that it's always their fault but a few should never be in charge of machinery
thanks Yertis, I operate a similar system whereby I record all the stuff I replace the bits I've already replaced as sutable intervals, many of these parts, fluids and componets are covered under the full and proper servicing shedule but other are not and should be
I'm always ware of the low depreciation bit so as not to encourage those that think they can buy a classic done nothing to it (like servicing) not derive it that often then sell it a year or two later expecting "a profit" or2not to have lost much" as these are the cars thathe new enthusiast then has to sort out
whilst the Stag will use more petrol than the MX-5 the MX-5 is resonable thirsty compared to a modern family car
And of course it's the not doing many miles that can create or extend problems
The OP by his car history and general feel seems to me like he ought to seriuosly consider getting a Stag but a lot of potential classic car owners would probably do themselves and the car they'd buy no favours if they did take up ownership, not that it's always their fault but a few should never be in charge of machinery
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