Classic vw bug - engine rebuild

[Diablos-666]

Hi guys,

I'm after a classic vw bug as a run around. Have seen one I like that's just about in budget but the engine has blown.

Should I get the current one re-built or get a new engine.

How easy are they to re-build and install, what sort of cost should I expect?

Thanks

[MikeyT]

While there are plenty on here who could help no doubt - I would be asking those question on a specialist VW bug forum of which there are plenty I am sure!

Google for them ...

[Diablos-666]

I would but you normally have to sign up before you can post.

I'm already a member of a Porsche / Focus RS club

Don't really want to sign up to anymore

[Work-Shy-Wanabe]

These engines are simple as hell. You can buy top end rebuild kits for decent prices and the bottom ends rarely have problems.

[snuffle]

Contact Rob at RNJ Motorsport, based in Silverstone. He will be able to give you some idea of prices and options available,
Tell him Swede said to phone.

http://www.rnjmotorsport.co.uk/

[AndrewW-G]

As per others, a quick google search will through up dozens of rebuild threads on more specialist forums, you can even watch how to clips on youtube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh6zhdp8Flw

[garethj]

There’s a book you should buy written by John Muir – How to keep your Volkswagen alive, a guide to step by step procedures for the complete idiot.

It’ll tell you how to rebuild your engine even if you’ve never picked up a spanner before. They’re generally straightforward to fix but they’re not very forgiving of mistakes and pub-talk bodges. For example if anyone tells you to leave out the thermostat, you’re allowed to beat them over the head with the forged crankshaft.

Problems? Heads can crack, especially between exhaust valve and spark plug (even more true on twin port heads like late 1300s and most 1600s. Cranks can bend if they’ve been over-revved, cylinders can go oval from overheating, big end bearings can be beaten into the block from over-revving. All parts are available, but get poor quality ones and you’ll be fixing it again next year.

You say the engine has blown, what’s wrong exactly? If I had 5 minutes to assess an engine, I’d get a compression tester on each plug hole and check for more than 100psi on all, and less than 10% difference from highest to lowest. If the compression is low squirt some oil down the plug hole and check compression again, if the value goes up (by perhaps 10psi) it’s worn piston rings, if no change it’s worn valves. Top end work. Then I’d grab the crankshaft pulley and push-pull to feel for endfloat. It should be so small you can barely feel it, if it’s big enough you can see it, the engine will need extensive work down to the bottom end.

Beware of any engine that’s been badly modified; chrome tinware (the sheetmetal around the engine that ducts the cooling air), external oil cooler without an oilstat or dodgy air filters would get my alarm bells ringing. Expect the worst.

[Diablos-666]

Below is what the seller has written to describe the engine...

"This is my slammed 1970 beetle which comes with a non working engine as i blew a hole in the top of the engine block. all that needs replacing are the con rods and engine block, but i have not taken it apart so there could be further damage."


I'm not looking to rebuild the engine myself, i'm trying to find it if its worth rebuilding the current engine or putting in a new one, from a financial & reliability pov.

I've emailed Rob at rnjmototsport as has been suggested above, so waiting to hear back from him.

[garethj]

Diablos-666 said:

This is my slammed

Do we have a rolleyes smilie? Lowering a Bug can be a good idea if it’s done well, the advantages of slightly decambering the rear suspension are significant. But for every car that’s done well, there are dozens done badly. As the engine doesn’t run, you won’t be able to drive the thing and see if it crashes over bumps. If the front axle has been narrowed it’ll handle badly, if the front axle hasn’t the tyres will rub on full lock. Anything more than a 2 inch drop is for people who thinks it looks cool but not drive better IMHO

Diablos-666 said:

i blew a hole in the top of the engine block. all that needs replacing are the con rods and engine block, but i have not taken it apart so there could be further damage.

When this con-rod came apart, what happened to the piston? I’d be more than surprised if the pistons aren’t toast (and you always replace them in sets, never just one) so that’s a new set of pistons and cylinders for the shopping list.

There’s a fair chance that without the conrod, the piston continued on its merry way outwards so suspect damage to the cylinder head. And as conrods rarely let go when driving Miss Daisy to church it’s likely the oil has thinned out a lot, so worn bearings generally are a good possibility.

So far the shopping list has a new crankcase, bearings, probably crankshaft, pistons, cylinders and likely to be a head or two. Useable parts are perhaps the camshaft (if it’s ok being bathed in oil surrounded with conrod swarf) and ancillary stuff such as generator, carb, tinware etc.

Diablos-666 said:

I'm not looking to rebuild the engine myself, i'm trying to find it if its worth rebuilding the current engine or putting in a new one, from a financial & reliability pov.

A rebuilt one will be mostly a new one anyway I reckon.

The most important thing on an old VW is rust. A decent second hand engine can be yours for £500-£1500, repairing rust can be double or treble that, plus paint afterwards.

[Diablos-666]

Thanks Gareth - I've asked about the rust, in particular on the floor pan and heater channels and i'm told there isn't any. Obviously i'll check before handing over my hard earned.

As for the car being slammed. In all honesty, i'm not really bothered if it's not the best driving experience in the world, i'm not buying if for that reason. I just want a cool retro shopping trolley really.

I have my TVR by the longer more exciting journeys.

If I budget £1k for the the new engine (supply & fit) would that be a sufficient budget? The cost of the engine will determine how much I can offer for the car.

[garethj]

You should be able to get a second hand motor for a grand and get it reliable, I'd go trawling the classified ads on Volkszone or try Megabug to see what they've got. If you're fitting it yourself you just need some axle stands and a trolley jack.

If you get a garage to fit it, you might want to get them to source the engine. Back when I was cash rich but time poor, Terry's Beetles in London would always do a good job on my Beetle.

As for there being no rust on the heater channels or floorpan, I would take that statement with a gigantic pinch of salt. Lift the back seat cushion up and look at the rear end of the heater channels, and where they go up into the inner rear wheelarches. It's double skinned there and the most common rust area. If it's all factory paint and no rust, snap the car up. If it's covered in thick underseal, you never know how well the repair has been done or how long until it needs doing again.

[M.J.S]

As other have said the rust is the thing to watch out for with bugs. Places to watch out for:
-Heater channels
-door hinges, and the base of the A post
-battery tray
-rear suspension mounts
-and the front tyre tray.

I didn't notice if you are looking at more traditional bug or a 1302/3 with the front strut suspension. There are some more desirable models than others, be sure you know which one you are looking at.

An engine, I’ve seen them being sold for as little as a few hundred quid. if you can reuse some of the ancillaries from the broken one you might be able to save a few quid.

Fitting them is something you can do at home with a few mates if your handy with a spanner.

Where abouts are you? Its normally worth getting a local VW owner to go check it out with you?

Do you have a link to the bug (don't worry I’m not in the market for one, i had a 1970 1300 with narrowed and lowered front beam, new shocks, a 1500 engine and 914 wheels). Bugs are awesome fun, even when lowered it just means you go even slower!

Oh one thing I’d recommend is upgrading the points and condenser to elec ignition, that’s the single best upgrade I ever did.

[Diablos-666]

As requested here is a link to the bug i've been describing...

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2644805.htm

here are some others that i've got my eye on...

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2663052.htm

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2578259.htm

[M.J.S]

Diablos-666 said:

As requested here is a link to the bug i've been describing...

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2644805.htm

here are some others that i've got my eye on...

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2663052.htm

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2578259.htm

You've got a few different bugs there, what looks like a 1302 (or 3?) in the first link. I think twin 40s on a 1600 engine would have been too big...
Looks tidy, but if/when you go see it get a magnet and check the sills for filler, along with the entire bottom 6" of bodywork.

The second link, nice cal looker, I've always had a soft spot for EMPI 5s. The 1641 engine is a bored out 1600 and some say that its not the best (heat retention and skinny cylinder walls). It being a pre 1967 bug it would have been 6v elecs and it has sloping front headlights (generally seen as the nicest looking). J-tubes replace the heat exchangers so there is no heating in this one. okay for summer but cold in winter! Also this means there is holes in the tinwear and the fan has a few blocked up holes.

The third link, a 4" narrowed beam is quite severe. I found a 2" one reduced my turning circle quite a lot.

Infact just go buy Muirs book, its a bible.

Edited to add J tubes = brrr!

Edited by M.J.S on Friday 8th April 13:29

Edited by M.J.S on Friday 8th April 13:31

[Diablos-666]

Thanks for the replies, they are certainly helping me get a better understanding of these cars.

I think heating will be quite important to me as i plan to be using this car in the winter months instead of my TVR.

In terms of looks the blown engine one is my favourite followed by the white one.

Excuse my naiety with regards to types of bugs as i have no idea. All i know is the split rear screen is the first type followed by the oval rear window and then the rectangle window. Anything other than that and i'm lost

[M.J.S]

Diablos-666 said:

Thanks for the replies, they are certainly helping me get a better understanding of these cars.

I think heating will be quite important to me as i plan to be using this car in the winter months instead of my TVR.

In terms of looks the blown engine one is my favourite followed by the white one.

Excuse my naiety with regards to types of bugs as i have no idea. All i know is the split rear screen is the first type followed by the oval rear window and then the rectangle window. Anything other than that and i'm lost

I've been out of the VW scene for a few years now but this is how it used to be....
Pre 67 always commanded a premium for the sloping front lights.
68-72 1300, 1500, 1600 were next in line with the 1500/1600 being the top dogs. Anything built after 1972 will pay road tax.
Then in the 1970s they introduced the 1302 and 1303, 1303s along with the GT. A shorter front bonnet, elephant foot rear lights, better handling and suspension. These were always seen as the ugly ones, late, prone to rust (as all of them are) and not tax exempt.

If you're using it daily, then I think I would go for a reasonably late one. A 1500/1600 will have had disc brakes on the front. But a well maintained drum setup is fine, more than enough braking power to lock them all up...

Ignore the miles done, chances are they have been round the clock more than once.

A lowered bug will be a hard ride, try and get out in a standard one if you can just to feel what its like.


The engine as said above can be swapped out most will fit (watch out for different clutch plate sizes and release mechanism)


Oh one last thing they like an oil chance every 3000 miles, along with a bit of a service. And every 6000 the tappets should be checked.

They are fantastic little cars, easy to work on and fun to drive. There are a few reasonable power upgrades you can be working as well.
Can you weld? thats got to be a bonus with all that potential tin worm!

[garethj]

That first engine is a dog. Loads of chrome which reflects the heat, holes in the tinware so hot exhaust gases have been drawn into the engine bay. The fan housing is a cheap chromed effort which gives much worse performance than the factory one, it's no surprise that engine overheated.

I had two twin 34s on one of my old cars and that was nice and responsive, 40s are too big unless it's got a lairy cam and it's been balanced for higher revs. Which if the quality of the rest is anything to go by....

And those front tyres will rub on the wings even as smaller 14" ones.

The second one looks ok, although there's still a hole in the cooling tin, right above the exhaust.

The third one would have me running for the hills based on the chrome in the engine, and the drastic lowering and narrowing.

[M.J.S]

garethj said:

The second one looks ok, although there's still a hole in the cooling tin, right above the exhaust.

Thats down to replacing the heat exchangers with the J-tubes isn't it?

Out of the three it looks the most honest, well I've always had a liking for a proper 60's cal looker.

[garethj]

Diablos-666 said:

Excuse my naiety with regards to types of bugs as i have no idea. All i know is the split rear screen is the first type followed by the oval rear window and then the rectangle window. Anything other than that and i'm lost

Split rear screens were up to March 1953, oval windows were up to August 1957, then small rectangular windows until August 1964 (look for a vertical rear edge on the door quarter light as an extra clue), then the rear window got slightly larger in about 1973, but almost nobody notices.

6V electrics were replaced by 12V around 1968, 1200cc cars were a little later but several have been converted to 12V by now anyway.

1200cc engines up to 1961 are hard work, after that they’re more robust. The 1300 was introduced in 1965 and the 1500 in 1966. The 1600 replaced it around 1971, and at the same time the 1300s got twin port cylinder heads. All 1600 Beetle engines had twin port heads, but some vans had single port heads which make less power. And some Beetles have now got van engines.

All 1500s have disc front brakes as do all 1302S and 1303S Beetles. The rare GT Beetle has them too, that’s a torsion bar front end and 1600cc engine. 1302 was introduced in 1971 and has McPherson struts up front, with semi trailing arms at the back, much more secure than swing axles. The 1303 superseded it in 1973 still with struts up front but it has a curved front windscreen, the 1302 has a flat screen.

I could ramble on for a while, but as most Beetles aren’t original you’ve got to take each one on its merits, not what it was when new. And rust is the main thing.

[garethj]

M.J.S said:

Thats down to replacing the heat exchangers with the J-tubes isn't it?

Out of the three it looks the most honest, well I've always had a liking for a proper 60's cal looker.

No, that hole is the one which should supply warm air through a tube to the air filters so it doesn't run like a dog when cold.

Edited by garethj on Friday 8th April 14:53