Ferrari Mondial / Porsche 911 should they give me The Fear?
Discussion
I'm hunting for a new project as the current one is nearing completion and I came upon the idea of getting an older Ferrari (Mondial) or Porsche (80s 911). I do pretty much all my car work myself although I've not really tackled serious deep engine work (done HGs though) but nothing usually scares me in terms of mechanicals as long as I am not rushed.
However I'm trying to find reliable info on how much a DIYer can realistically do on a car like that and what it costs to run one. When I say run I'm talking summer months pootling to work (20 mile round trip), trips away and then into the garage for the winter to be wrapped up in a blankie with a hot mug of oil and a bit of pampering. Mileage probably in the region of 4000 pa.
So things like parts prices, servicing costs (i.e. what CAN'T I do myself), and things likely to trip me up like 2K service intervals or regularly imploding parts. Similarly what is the opinion (i.e. impact on market value) on self-servicing these when it comes to selling on in a few years time when I fancy a change?
Obviously I don't expect these to be on the same level of running costs as a Spriget or Spitfire but are we talking 1,000s a year or 10s of 1,000s?
I guess what I'm asking is - is The Fear justified?
However I'm trying to find reliable info on how much a DIYer can realistically do on a car like that and what it costs to run one. When I say run I'm talking summer months pootling to work (20 mile round trip), trips away and then into the garage for the winter to be wrapped up in a blankie with a hot mug of oil and a bit of pampering. Mileage probably in the region of 4000 pa.
So things like parts prices, servicing costs (i.e. what CAN'T I do myself), and things likely to trip me up like 2K service intervals or regularly imploding parts. Similarly what is the opinion (i.e. impact on market value) on self-servicing these when it comes to selling on in a few years time when I fancy a change?
Obviously I don't expect these to be on the same level of running costs as a Spriget or Spitfire but are we talking 1,000s a year or 10s of 1,000s?
I guess what I'm asking is - is The Fear justified?
Having owned and restored (on a professional basis) a few Mondials, this is my 2p
Service parts for a Mondial won’t be a problem, budget on approx. £200 in parts for a full cambelt service . . . the tricky bit is when you come to none service items, for example rear screens delaminate and last time I looked were a tad over a thousand pounds delivered!, tyres are £3-400 a corner for the correct milimetrics, fuse boards are £600 for a uprated aftermarket one from Zertec, you'll struggle to get replacement trim.
However as most are now approaching their third decade and were built using the same grade of rust prone steel as other Fiats of the era (later cars were galvanised, but still aren’t that rust resistant)
The real problems come when you either need to buy complete panels (I think I had the last of Ferraris spares for a few bits a couple of years ago) or repair the existing ones, not only will you need a fairly decent degree of skill, but you’ll also have to work on panels that have been smoothed out with lead, which will of course need to be burn out before you can work on them.
That lot isn’t by any means all the problems with them, however it also doesn’t represent a fair impression as by Ferrari’s standards of the early 80’s, they drive well (better on the road than a 3X8), are relatively cheap to run and are bloody practical
And to top all that lot, most advertised Mondial projects, sell for almost as much as decent running examples!
ETA: if your self servicing them, expect to see approx 25% knocked off the value, people don't like Ferraris without a stamp in the service book from somebody who knows what they are doing
It’s a Ferrari, buy the very best one you can and just enjoy driving it
Service parts for a Mondial won’t be a problem, budget on approx. £200 in parts for a full cambelt service . . . the tricky bit is when you come to none service items, for example rear screens delaminate and last time I looked were a tad over a thousand pounds delivered!, tyres are £3-400 a corner for the correct milimetrics, fuse boards are £600 for a uprated aftermarket one from Zertec, you'll struggle to get replacement trim.
However as most are now approaching their third decade and were built using the same grade of rust prone steel as other Fiats of the era (later cars were galvanised, but still aren’t that rust resistant)
The real problems come when you either need to buy complete panels (I think I had the last of Ferraris spares for a few bits a couple of years ago) or repair the existing ones, not only will you need a fairly decent degree of skill, but you’ll also have to work on panels that have been smoothed out with lead, which will of course need to be burn out before you can work on them.
That lot isn’t by any means all the problems with them, however it also doesn’t represent a fair impression as by Ferrari’s standards of the early 80’s, they drive well (better on the road than a 3X8), are relatively cheap to run and are bloody practical
And to top all that lot, most advertised Mondial projects, sell for almost as much as decent running examples!
ETA: if your self servicing them, expect to see approx 25% knocked off the value, people don't like Ferraris without a stamp in the service book from somebody who knows what they are doing
It’s a Ferrari, buy the very best one you can and just enjoy driving it
The alternative choice of the 911 is a much less scary proposition.
Assuming the 80's model (the 90's 964 makes a lot of sense) they are not bad from a rust point of view, but yes will be showing signs of age now unless it's been pampered or worked on.
Mechanically solid and reliable, easy to service (no cambelt) clutch is a git of a job but not technically hard.
Assuming the 80's model (the 90's 964 makes a lot of sense) they are not bad from a rust point of view, but yes will be showing signs of age now unless it's been pampered or worked on.
Mechanically solid and reliable, easy to service (no cambelt) clutch is a git of a job but not technically hard.
Thanks Andrew, very informative.
I suspected self-service would have a big impact on value. For me part of the joy of cars is working on them myself so that's something I'd have to weigh up vs getting someone else to do it.
Is there an alternative to the millimetrics as that sounds like a hideous cost for tyres? Everything else sounds pretty much as expected.
Having never driven either can anyone who has comment on which is the more fun and involving to drive? It doesn't have to be the fastest but it'll be primarily for providing driving enjoyment rather than fastest A-B or posing.
I suspected self-service would have a big impact on value. For me part of the joy of cars is working on them myself so that's something I'd have to weigh up vs getting someone else to do it.
Is there an alternative to the millimetrics as that sounds like a hideous cost for tyres? Everything else sounds pretty much as expected.
Having never driven either can anyone who has comment on which is the more fun and involving to drive? It doesn't have to be the fastest but it'll be primarily for providing driving enjoyment rather than fastest A-B or posing.
If you want to know how a 80's 911 can be worked on DIY then checkout the forums on www.impactbumpers.com
Any job on a 911, inc a full engine rebuild is doable at home. I've done it.
Easy peasy.
Any job on a 911, inc a full engine rebuild is doable at home. I've done it.
Easy peasy.
renrut said:
Is there an alternative to the millimetrics as that sounds like a hideous cost for tyres? Everything else sounds pretty much as expected.
Yep, there are a couple of ways of getting different tyres on Mondials, upgrading to later 348 wheels, superformance sell non milimetric OEM style wheels and the solution I pioneered over a decade ago,is to put a set of wheels from a Volvo 850T5 on! . . .the offset and PCD are identical and it means you can put more modern (and far far cheaper) rubber on them 
As for how they drive, as well as the mongos I've also had a couple of 911's including a long term 964 cab, performance is on a par with the mondial, the 911 is built better, but the Ferrari is a more relaxed car for covering long distance and has a little bit roomier cabin . . . . it will all come down to personal preference
If you're looking for a Ferrari as a project and are handy with the spanners and not afraid to tackle any jobs, I'd say have a look here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ , in the appropriate section for the model in mind.
They're a great bunch of guys on there, a lot of whom do their own service work from simple stuff like plug changes right up to full engine rebuilds and total restorations. They have some of the best connections to finding elusive parts and are all massively enthusiastic about the marque.
Hope this is of some help!
They're a great bunch of guys on there, a lot of whom do their own service work from simple stuff like plug changes right up to full engine rebuilds and total restorations. They have some of the best connections to finding elusive parts and are all massively enthusiastic about the marque.
Hope this is of some help!
Huntsman said:
If you want to know how a 80's 911 can be worked on DIY then checkout the forums on www.impactbumpers.com
Any job on a 911, inc a full engine rebuild is doable at home. I've done it.
Easy peasy.
It's the best bit of it being related to a VW beetle. Any job on a 911, inc a full engine rebuild is doable at home. I've done it.
Easy peasy.
4rephill said:
I'd say have a look here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/
Oh dear.Here we go...
"Sir, step away from the Ferrari 308 buyers guides..."
Yertis said:
4rephill said:
I'd say have a look here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/
Oh dear.Here we go...
"Sir, step away from the Ferrari 308 buyers guides..."
As a Porsche fan who wouldn't particularly buy a Ferrari (although a 360 spider would sway me) I always enjoyed going out in a friends 348, it was a god awful car it literally did almost break down every time we went out in it, but it was a real experience, it just felt special. It wasn't comfortable, quick or in any way good, but it was somehow special. My 911 in contrast was quirky for sure, but not in the same way as the Ferrari, it wasn't anywhere near as special as the Ferrari, but then again I used the car daily, if special involves sitting by the side of the road trying to work out why one of the ECUs has packed up for the third time that day then boring sounds pretty good to me! It just wasn't as much of an event.
But......
It was a hell of lot quicker in real life, handling was vastly better it was a far more nimble car, it was much more reliable (in fact in circa 60k never let me down in any way) and much more comfortable and more livable with.
If you want a car to be special and an event to drive (albeit not that quick) buy the Mondial, but if you want a car to live with my money would go on the 911, the 911 can actually be run on a shoestring if you do the work yourself and are prepared to solve issues without throwing a chequebook at them, I suspect the Mondial could end up ruining you if it goes wrong even though the car is cheap.
But......
It was a hell of lot quicker in real life, handling was vastly better it was a far more nimble car, it was much more reliable (in fact in circa 60k never let me down in any way) and much more comfortable and more livable with.
If you want a car to be special and an event to drive (albeit not that quick) buy the Mondial, but if you want a car to live with my money would go on the 911, the 911 can actually be run on a shoestring if you do the work yourself and are prepared to solve issues without throwing a chequebook at them, I suspect the Mondial could end up ruining you if it goes wrong even though the car is cheap.
...but is a Mondial worth restoring? Dunno - I wouldn't. I went to look at a dog rough black Mondial QV around 8 years ago for £4000. It was just rubbish, and now worth the ag when at the time you could buy a decent one for 10 grand. Yes, It's a Ferrari but it was (is?) always the ugly sister nobody wanted - along with the 308GT4. They weren't very sought after when new and it wasn't that long ago that they were regularly being broken up for the engines for 308's. Considering how badly they rust and fall to bits (think 1983 Alfa 33), getting a s
tbox back up to some sort of standard could be very expensive and exceed it's value. And you've still got a Mondial - the 924 of Ferraris which is not shooting up in value any time soon.
A 911 is a more worthwhile proposition. Lots of sad old 911's get messed about with, butchered into crap RD lookalikes or fitted with cup wheels so restoring an SC back to how it should be could be a good project because these and 3.2 Carreras are going to appreciate. Anyone who restores an SC back to how it should be gets my vote!
If you can find one that's not a bogged up old snotter, the M635CSi (24v M6) is a car whose value is on the up. They rust ferociously and parts are £££, but they are DIY doable.
The 928S is another possible. They're not valuable at all, but they tend to last well bodywise and you can buy a decent saveable example for not a lot. But only if you're good with spanners and like chasing volts!
tbox back up to some sort of standard could be very expensive and exceed it's value. And you've still got a Mondial - the 924 of Ferraris which is not shooting up in value any time soon.A 911 is a more worthwhile proposition. Lots of sad old 911's get messed about with, butchered into crap RD lookalikes or fitted with cup wheels so restoring an SC back to how it should be could be a good project because these and 3.2 Carreras are going to appreciate. Anyone who restores an SC back to how it should be gets my vote!
If you can find one that's not a bogged up old snotter, the M635CSi (24v M6) is a car whose value is on the up. They rust ferociously and parts are £££, but they are DIY doable.
The 928S is another possible. They're not valuable at all, but they tend to last well bodywise and you can buy a decent saveable example for not a lot. But only if you're good with spanners and like chasing volts!
Unfortunately I don't know enough about the old V8 Ferrari engines - the gent above who's had a few would know! Old 911 engines such as the SC and 3.2 Carrera would be okay on unleaded. They were sold in big numbers in the US (albeit with air pumps and emissions stuff) and I doubt the heads/valve seats are different.
Another plus for the 911 - lots were made, lots have been broken up and there are thus lots of secondhand parts.
Another plus for the 911 - lots were made, lots have been broken up and there are thus lots of secondhand parts.
Seems to be swinging in favour of the Porsche. For the same money I can get a nice 80s 911 or a ropey Mondial. Not sure my budget would stretch to a 'good' Mondial which is the preferred path to go down but it looks like it'll stretch to a good 911.
But of course it won't be a Ferrari. But it will be a Porsche and an original 911 is a very rare sight these days but having seen both a Mondial and a 911 in the last week in my area they both looked good and both seemed to have the necessary happy looking driver.
But of course it won't be a Ferrari. But it will be a Porsche and an original 911 is a very rare sight these days but having seen both a Mondial and a 911 in the last week in my area they both looked good and both seemed to have the necessary happy looking driver.
Im a porsche fan too - but trying to put that to 1 side for a minute...
Every time I see a Mondial on the road, or in the advert section of a mag it makes me wonder if I should try out a Fezza, but by the same taken I always look at the person driving the Mondial and think 'you couldnt afford a proper one' - you know what I mean?
Anyway - in terms of parts availability, reliability, sustaining a good value (with the possibility of increasing value!?) i'd go for the 911 - Its not exactly 'the sensible choice' as such is it - You're still talking about buying one of the most legendary cars on the planet, with impressive performance and stunning looks...
I think you can see where my vote goes - and I really was trying to be unbiased
Every time I see a Mondial on the road, or in the advert section of a mag it makes me wonder if I should try out a Fezza, but by the same taken I always look at the person driving the Mondial and think 'you couldnt afford a proper one' - you know what I mean?
Anyway - in terms of parts availability, reliability, sustaining a good value (with the possibility of increasing value!?) i'd go for the 911 - Its not exactly 'the sensible choice' as such is it - You're still talking about buying one of the most legendary cars on the planet, with impressive performance and stunning looks...
I think you can see where my vote goes - and I really was trying to be unbiased
I recall seeing an SC not long ago. Black with the tea tray spoiler, Fuchs wheels and in very nice condition. It was on a V plate so would have been a 188 bhp model (?). It just looked classic and far more interesting than the supposedly more desirable slim bumper cars. The Pasha chessboard seat trim is a bit classic as well.
4rephill said:
Whatever! 
I found those guides really interesting, a useful post. But they should have a warning on them, like cigarettes, because when I start reading that stuff common sense goes to leave the room. I love 308GTBs, one of the most beautiful cars ever created IMO. The cars I actually own are all quite ugly, by comparison.
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