407 ARX - Genuine Works Cooper of Log Book Recreation?
Discussion
Back in the '60's before he had kids, my dad did some rallying. One of his cars was an ex-works Mini Cooper registration 407 ARX, which he campaigned for a couple of years and then sold.
Those that know say that the car was some years later dismantled/broken and all the special parts sold off. Not suprising as being a works then private rally car it had led a very tough life and was pretty knackered, and at that time had little value.
Now of course genuine Works Coopers are worth very significant money.
Suprise suprise when my dad's car (well registration number) turns up on Top Gear together with a bodyshell of the same age (My dad categorically states that it was not the bodyshell that the car had when he owned it as it clearly did not have the very obvious modifications that the car had at that time).
The car then went on to win a premium rate viewer phone in and was 'restored' at Top Gear viewer's expense. The owner of the log book was no doubt chuffed to bits that Top Gear paid for all the work, and is now advertising the car for sale for over £100,000
Is the consensus that this is still a genuine Works Cooper, or merely a recreation?
Would the value be different if it were one or the other?
If it is not the origin bodyshell (or a brand new replacement) then i was under the impression that DVLA would change the registration number for a Q plate.
Having had the good fortune of having his registration document & bodyshell restored/built into a potentially very valuable car at someone else's expense, i wonder if the proceeds might be used for the benefit of the classic car community as a whole - any suggestions?
Those that know say that the car was some years later dismantled/broken and all the special parts sold off. Not suprising as being a works then private rally car it had led a very tough life and was pretty knackered, and at that time had little value.
Now of course genuine Works Coopers are worth very significant money.
Suprise suprise when my dad's car (well registration number) turns up on Top Gear together with a bodyshell of the same age (My dad categorically states that it was not the bodyshell that the car had when he owned it as it clearly did not have the very obvious modifications that the car had at that time).
The car then went on to win a premium rate viewer phone in and was 'restored' at Top Gear viewer's expense. The owner of the log book was no doubt chuffed to bits that Top Gear paid for all the work, and is now advertising the car for sale for over £100,000
Is the consensus that this is still a genuine Works Cooper, or merely a recreation?
Would the value be different if it were one or the other?
If it is not the origin bodyshell (or a brand new replacement) then i was under the impression that DVLA would change the registration number for a Q plate.
Having had the good fortune of having his registration document & bodyshell restored/built into a potentially very valuable car at someone else's expense, i wonder if the proceeds might be used for the benefit of the classic car community as a whole - any suggestions?
http://pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
we just had a similiar discussion here. my viewpoint still stands.. fake fake fake
we just had a similiar discussion here. my viewpoint still stands.. fake fake fake
£100,000...... 
He obviously doesn't want to sell it then.
As I recall there was mutterings about this on the Mini Cooper Register at the time. I think the Register were asked to authenticate it and didn't ..... intially....... but may have done later...? Not sure about the latter..... and MCR members here..??
My view (and similar to the Escort thread) is that, it's a faithfull replica (fascimile) of the orginal constructed around the original number plate identity. It would make it more valuable than a similar historic rally prepared Cooper that doesn't have an ex-works number plate..... but considerably less than a true ex-works car, or an identity that's had continuity of use like the Escort thread..... which wasn't hiding it's changes over the years, unlike this situation, which appears to be a log book kept in a draw for a number of years, whereby the DVLA was not notified of the car being broken up. I would also think it's likely that in this case the important ID/chassis plates may be missing which, IMHO, make a big difference and mean a less valuable end result...?
IMHO, £100k is about 60k above it's true value.
He obviously doesn't want to sell it then.
As I recall there was mutterings about this on the Mini Cooper Register at the time. I think the Register were asked to authenticate it and didn't ..... intially....... but may have done later...? Not sure about the latter..... and MCR members here..??
My view (and similar to the Escort thread) is that, it's a faithfull replica (fascimile) of the orginal constructed around the original number plate identity. It would make it more valuable than a similar historic rally prepared Cooper that doesn't have an ex-works number plate..... but considerably less than a true ex-works car, or an identity that's had continuity of use like the Escort thread..... which wasn't hiding it's changes over the years, unlike this situation, which appears to be a log book kept in a draw for a number of years, whereby the DVLA was not notified of the car being broken up. I would also think it's likely that in this case the important ID/chassis plates may be missing which, IMHO, make a big difference and mean a less valuable end result...?
IMHO, £100k is about 60k above it's true value.
The Escort and this are from the same pot for sure. Neither are 'Works' cars. They carry numbers that once graced works rally cars but I'd be surprised if either have one single part that actually was on the original car. Couldn't give a monkeys about the number plate. What happens if the original cars had been stuck in a barn rather then scrapped or reshelled and the id's moved onto a new car. Then someone now opens the barn finds the car. Which one is then the 'ex works' car the one built 30 years later with the correct number or the crashed shell in the barn? Or are there now 2. There could well be 2,3 or more works cars (actually raced in period by the manufaturer) that could have the right to wear the number but it sure isn't one that gets built 30 years later.
muppetboy said:
The Escort and this are from the same pot for sure.
No they aren’t. The Escort in question, as I keep saying, has documented continuous history, and that’s an important point here. Yes, it’s been through a few Mk1 reshells, a few Mk2 reshells, a Mk3, a Sierra etc., but that’s because it been a continuous competition car, and all the bits new/old get transferred with the ID plates into a new shell. All that’s happened is that’s been done again, but back into a Mk1 shell to take it back to close to what it was originally. More to the point, there’s no attempt to hide this, and indeed its continuous comp history is being shown as part of its history. It’s got what is described as historical provenance.
The Cooper on the other hand falls into the ‘car knowingly scrapped and log book thrown into a draw for 40 years without DVLA being notified’ camp and is a recreation/facsimile of the original with the original logbook and without a continuous history provenance (it may not even have the original data plates which again would go against it IMHO)..... and inspite of its very public creation/recreation, this is being seemingly glossed over.
As a recreation of a works car with a works number plate ID, it has a value associated as a sum of the parts, with maybe a 5% premium because of the log book, but the owner is simply not on this planet if he/she thinks it’s worth 100k......not even half of that figure IMHO.
muppetboy said:
Neither are 'Works' cars. They carry numbers that once graced works rally cars but I'd be surprised if either have one single part that actually was on the original car. Couldn't give a monkeys about the number plate.
Then by your definition, the vast majority of 'ex-works' rally cars that exist arn't either. Being able to define a part that was on the original of any ex-works rally car of any make is nigh on impossible......parts were swapped around to such a huge extent when they were being rallied by the factory with zero records kept. You are simply being unrealistic in your definition. A large number of many ex-works cars have genuine ex-works parts though which is means they are 'correct' to an extent.If the car was scrapped years ago, how come the plate has been transferred and found its way onto this Mini?
A car has to have an MOT for a plate to be transferred FROM it ...
You can't just go sticking a plate on it. This IS NOT a works rally car at all, it's a clone - that somehow happens to have the same number plate.
Worth £100k? I'd say 20% of that at best. Still no idea how it got the plate.
A car has to have an MOT for a plate to be transferred FROM it ...
You can't just go sticking a plate on it. This IS NOT a works rally car at all, it's a clone - that somehow happens to have the same number plate.
Worth £100k? I'd say 20% of that at best. Still no idea how it got the plate.
Edited by MikeyT on Tuesday 18th January 10:23
mikey
the plate wasnt transfered from the original car.
the logbook has been reapplied for - on the dvla site it shows as date of first registration as 1989 (though this isnt always a sign of anything odd - it is the dvla computer after all!)
most of the ex-works cars where 'rediscovered' during this time.
as i have said on the thread running in the classic mini section, the dvla used to be a lot slacker in those days, and what people could get away with then couldnt happen now.
i think its fair to say that anyone who looks at any exworks cars (not just minis) can accept that a vast percentage of them do have the whiff of triggers broom about them!
the plate wasnt transfered from the original car.
the logbook has been reapplied for - on the dvla site it shows as date of first registration as 1989 (though this isnt always a sign of anything odd - it is the dvla computer after all!)
most of the ex-works cars where 'rediscovered' during this time.
as i have said on the thread running in the classic mini section, the dvla used to be a lot slacker in those days, and what people could get away with then couldnt happen now.
i think its fair to say that anyone who looks at any exworks cars (not just minis) can accept that a vast percentage of them do have the whiff of triggers broom about them!
So blatant copying then ... !
Find an old Mini shell, dress it up to be a copy of the original works Cooper from the 60s ....
All well and good.
But then apply for the defunct no. plate to be re-issued (as you say, wouldn't happen now) and pop it on the clone of the ex-works car.
All well and good.
But then you can't then say it is THE ex-works car from the 60s simply cos it has the correct plate on it.
It's a clone of it - albeit with the correct no. plate.
No more.
Find an old Mini shell, dress it up to be a copy of the original works Cooper from the 60s ....
All well and good.
But then apply for the defunct no. plate to be re-issued (as you say, wouldn't happen now) and pop it on the clone of the ex-works car.
All well and good.
But then you can't then say it is THE ex-works car from the 60s simply cos it has the correct plate on it.
It's a clone of it - albeit with the correct no. plate.
No more.
mikey
its not just the reg number thats reissued (and put on another car)
in the 80's/90's people where claiming back THE v5 for the ex-works car.
so the reg number, chassis number etc etc matches.
then muddy the water, get the back story right, sell it on a few times and fast forward to today and you have a ex works mini / escort / car owned by a famous person / circuit car etc etc.
dont forget that when the dvla came out to inspect cars they would check the engine number, chassis number, get a letter from the club confirming that the car was what the owner said it was and thats all there was to it.
if any thing more of the blame should be laid at the feet of the people in the clubs who authenticated these cars, after all they are 'experts' not the dvla.
its not just the reg number thats reissued (and put on another car)
in the 80's/90's people where claiming back THE v5 for the ex-works car.
so the reg number, chassis number etc etc matches.
then muddy the water, get the back story right, sell it on a few times and fast forward to today and you have a ex works mini / escort / car owned by a famous person / circuit car etc etc.
dont forget that when the dvla came out to inspect cars they would check the engine number, chassis number, get a letter from the club confirming that the car was what the owner said it was and thats all there was to it.
if any thing more of the blame should be laid at the feet of the people in the clubs who authenticated these cars, after all they are 'experts' not the dvla.
aeropilot said:
muppetboy said:
The Escort and this are from the same pot for sure.
No they aren’t. The Escort in question, as I keep saying, has documented continuous history, and that’s an important point here. Yes, it’s been through a few Mk1 reshells, a few Mk2 reshells, a Mk3, a Sierra etc., but that’s because it been a continuous competition car, and . All that’s happened is that’s been done again, but back into a Mk1 shell to take it back to close to what it was originally. More to the point, there’s no attempt to hide this, and indeed its continuous comp history is being shown as part of its history. It’s got what is described as historical provenance.
The Cooper on the other hand falls into the ‘car knowingly scrapped and log book thrown into a draw for 40 years without DVLA being notified’ camp and is a recreation/facsimile of the original with the original logbook and without a continuous history provenance (it may not even have the original data plates which again would go against it IMHO)..... and inspite of its very public creation/recreation, this is being seemingly glossed over.
As a recreation of a works car with a works number plate ID, it has a value associated as a sum of the parts, with maybe a 5% premium because of the log book, but the owner is simply not on this planet if he/she thinks it’s worth 100k......not even half of that figure IMHO.
muppetboy said:
Neither are 'Works' cars. They carry numbers that once graced works rally cars but I'd be surprised if either have one single part that actually was on the original car. Couldn't give a monkeys about the number plate.
Then by your definition, the vast majority of 'ex-works' rally cars that exist arn't either. Being able to define a part that was on the original of any ex-works rally car of any make is nigh on impossible......parts were swapped around to such a huge extent when they were being rallied by the factory with zero records kept. You are simply being unrealistic in your definition. A large number of many ex-works cars have genuine ex-works parts though which is means they are 'correct' to an extent.We'll see if either sell. I think people in the market for this sort of car will ultimatly decide what these cars are.
MikeyT said:
If the car was scrapped years ago, how come the plate has been transferred and found its way onto this Mini?
A car has to have an MOT for a plate to be transferred FROM it ...
You can't just go sticking a plate on it. This IS NOT a works rally car at all, it's a clone - that somehow happens to have the same number plate.
The problem is that the DVLA doesn’t have the experience to check the history of classic cars before reissuing V5's that allow number plates to be transferred, they simply check that it has the correct chassis plate and stamped markings on the motor, chassis etc, the very negative results is that cars get cloned for all sorts of reasons.A car has to have an MOT for a plate to be transferred FROM it ...
You can't just go sticking a plate on it. This IS NOT a works rally car at all, it's a clone - that somehow happens to have the same number plate.
Below are three photographs, that illustrate this point.
1: Bugatti Type 57 chassis number 57516, this car was assigned the UK registration number YTU 57 and exported 50ish years ago, it hasn’t been back in the UK since and has a continuous known history with the Bugatti Owners Club Type 57 register, the only major non original part of the car is the Bugatti chassis plate, that was removed prior to its export by the last UK owner
2: A replica type 37 Bugatti as advertised in C&SC
3: The same replica type 37 Bugatti, one month later, but now wearing reg plate YTU 57 and listed by the DVLA as having chassis number 57516 and when shown to me by the then owner, was fitted with a Bugatti chassis plate bearing the chassis number 57516 and the motor bearing the number 3737CV, it was obviously not a Bugatti motor and there were a set of metal stamps and a hammer left out on the owners workbench!
When shown this picture, the BOC registrar stated that the car in the bottom two pictures is obviously not, nor has it ever been a Bugatti . . . . The DVLA listed it as a type 57 Bugatti and when the YTU57 number was transferred, it was reassigned UK registration ESL13 a HPI report may well indicate the fate of this car, please draw your own conclusions as to the motive
Edited by AndrewW-G on Tuesday 18th January 19:44
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